sagum

[Marcus Mummius]

Greetings,

I want to make a sagum using Cacaius hand woven wool. This sagum is meant for a 1st century AD impression. The wool Cacaius sells is however only 150cm wide. Will it be necesarry to use two pieces joined together for a sagum? I'm about 1m78 tall (5'8").

If I have to sew two pieces together, where should the seam be?

Best regards,

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Jef

The military cloaks in BGU 1564 are identical in size to hospital blankets requested in the same document. they were 2.66m long by 1.77m wide. These measurements can be compared with surviving cloaks for example one from Nubia which was 1.75m long by 1.05mwide, another from Israel which was 2.70m long by 1.40m wide and the famous Thorsberg example which was 2.50m long by 1.68m wide. The Nahal Hever type from Israel would probably fill your requirements.

The cloaks in BGU 1564 weighed 1.6kg.

Hope this helps

Graham.

[Marcus Mummius]

Thanks Graham,

I read that in your book too . My problem is that I do not know what measurments I should make my sagum.

The cloak from nubia, was this made for a child or for someone very small?

And why is the one from Israel so long in relation to its length?

Do you think a width of 150cm would be enough? I won't be able to fold back one third over my shoulders but I take this was not always done. Would a cloak 150cm wide still hang down low enough?

Kind regards,
Jef

[Graham Sumner]

Jef wrote:

The cloak from nubia, was this made for a child or for someone very small?

Off hand I do not know. Even if it was found with a body and I think in this case it was, there is no guarantee it belonged to that person as cloaks could be reused as burial shrouds.

And why is the one from Israel so long in relation to its length?

Yes it is a bit of an oddity that one

Do you think a width of 150cm would be enough? I won't be able to fold back one third over my shoulders but I take this was not always done. Would a cloak 150cm wide still hang down low enough?

Well if you go off the measurements for the Nahal Hever cloak from Israel then you are copying an actual example. Of course we do not know the size of the original owner but at least you can say you have copied the dimensions of an original cloak without resorting to sewing up two sections although I have seen an example of a tunic made up from pieces of an old cloak. I doubt whether many soldiers resorted to that except under combat conditions. St Martin cut up his cloak into two pieces which shows you how big they were.

However as a simple test to see if you cloak is big enough you can try the following. Soldiers are often depicted on their funerary monuments wearing their cloak in the Greek fashion i.e fold half of your cloak over your left shoulder and let it fall to the floor. Bring the surplus material behind your back and under your right arm and then across your chest. You should have enough material left to either throw over your left shoulder and for it to stay in place or hold in place under your left armpit. If you cannot do this your cloak is not big enough. Remember your cloak should really be the same size as an army blanket and probably doubled up for that purpose on campaign.

Graham.

[John M McDermott]

I have heard it suggested that the sagum doubled as an army blanket.

However, the sagum was an especially revered garment, and finely made, like the toga. It has been suggested to me that they were expensive, too.

The grave steles show sagums draped in meticulous fashion, suggesting both a fine weave and a high status to the garment.

I would suggest the weave should be very, very good, and, the borders should have tablet weaving attached.

[aitor iriarte]

John,
Just one comment (forgive me if I'm going far too nicky-picky! :oops: ): The tablet-woven borders were not attached to the fabric, they were woven in one with it. In fact, one of them acted as starting-border, having all the warp threads arranged starting from it to be hanged from the loom.

Aitor

[Graham Sumner]

John wrote:

However, the sagum was an especially revered garment, and finely made, like the toga. It has been suggested to me that they were expensive, too.

The grave steles show sagums draped in meticulous fashion, suggesting both a fine weave and a high status to the garment.

I would suggest the weave should be very, very good, and, the borders should have tablet weaving attached.

Hi John

The cloaks mentioned in BGU1564 cost six Denarii.

In my opinion the cloaks depicted on the tombstones are the soldiers best. Tacitus mentions soldiers of the German frontier garrison in very tattered clothing and Caracalla when described by his biographer as living like a soldier was obviously also roughing it at the time.

I would rather say the cloaks could have tablet weaving attached. The only clear first century evidence for this in a military context that I know of would appear to be the standard bearer's cloak shown on the Mainz column base.

Graham.

[Marcus Mummius]

Did these cloaks ever have lining?

Regards,

[aitor iriarte]

Graham,

I feel curious about how can you tell that a tablet-woven strip is attached or woven to a sculpted cloak... :?

Aitor

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Aitor

Aitor wrote:

Graham,

I feel curious about how can you tell that a tablet-woven strip is attached or woven to a sculpted cloak...

My attention was drawn to this relief by Lise Bender Jorgensen. Although I had seen the sculpture many times in books and in the 'flesh' before, she pointed out the similarity between the cloak on the sculpture which has a boad border with fringes and open work detail of the border with actual remains of a cloak from Vaalermoor which has a tablet woven border. Other Roman cloaks can be seen with fringes but that was why I said the Roman military cloaks could have tablet woven borders rather than they should have in reply to John's post above. If look at the relief itself you will notice the effort the sculptor has made to show this detail and the prominent position it has, almost as if he really wants you to see it.

See also 'Forhistoriske Textiler i Skandinavien', Copenhagen. (1986). by Lise Bender Jorgensen.
'Barbarian Mercenaries or Roman Citizens'. Fornvannen 82 (1987)by Gad Rausing

Hope this helps.

Graham.

[aitor iriarte]

Graham,
Maybe we're misunderstanding what the other one is meaning... :roll:
To my mind, probably every decent cloak had tablet-woven borders.
What I was stressing is that those borders were created at the same time that the fabric was being woven and, therefore, they were not woven separately (except for the starting border) and later attached to the fabric.

Aitor

[Tarbicus]

those borders were created at the same time that the fabric was being woven and, therefore, they were not woven separately (except for the starting border) and later attached to the fabric.

A bit of a wander:- Given that's the case, and taking cost into consideration which can be off-putting to many, do you guys think it would be legitimate to either screenprint the pattern, or paint it with dyes/fabric paint, directly onto the fabric? That would make it a part of the weave and not an attachment.

The same with clavii.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Among the Thorsbjerg sagums there is at least one, which had the rims attached later. (I think I can remember that, not guaranteed, though).

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Aitor

Yes we are :lol:

I am certainly not disagreeing with you. Cloaks could have tablet woven borders. I believe it is possible to see one example of this on the Mainz column base scuplture as the sculptor has gone to a lot of effort to show it prominently. That is what I meant I think :wink:

Graham.

[aitor iriarte]

That's exactly what I do with my late tunic, Jim. Not totally satisfactory and progressively fading away with every washing but totally affordable and available. :wink:

Graham,
Now everything is clear! :lol:

Christian,
Do you have Schlabow's book at hand? Mine is under a heavy pile of books in one corner... :x

Aitor