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A question about general Spartan military
#16
Quote:Have you guys heard the story of how a spartan phalanx defeated a rampagaging horde of goths after the goths defeated a roman army in the area (this happend around the fall of rome era apprently)
There were no Spartan phalanxes around that time. Period.

If a unit defeated Goths in that area (which is possible) in a phalangial formation (which is possible, BUT..), they were just that - Late Roman army.
Wheeler has amply demonstrated that phalangial formations remained in use in the Roman army.
HOWEVER (and here comes the BUT) we can't compare such phalangial formations in any way with hoplites or a Greek phalanx. It just means that, contrary to the manipular system, the phalangial formation moves as one.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#17
Quote: Their grim determination was the most important factor in moulding the Greek coaletion against the Persians at the Amfictioninc Counsil. Without it there wouldn´t be any resistance because other Greeks were awed by the size of the Persian empire.

The Spartans certainly represent one of what amounted to maybe four actual free acting Greek states that resisted Persia in any significant why – Sparta, Corinth, Athens and Aigina. Rather than grim determination, I would suggest Spartan compulsion is a bigger factor in molding ‘Greek’ resistance; seeing as the bulk of the Greek states that fought Persia were either members of the Peloponnesian league or like Aigina constrained by Sparta to fight – Athens (and her dependencies Plataea and Chalcis) having already decided to fight on their own.

Quote:Thermopylae proved that they put their lives were their words were. The Spartan troops present as marines at Salamis reaffirmed their commitment to fight to the bitter end. Yes, their close combat training came handy during the Salamis boarding actions. They were also responsible for providing officers and trainers for the troops of the Delian League and set the basis for the successes of Eurymedon and Mycale not to mention Cyprus and Karia.

Come on now, whatever Sparta’s contributions at Thermopylae and Plataea, you’re reaching here to give tham any significance to them on the naval side. Aside from the fact that you are disregarding the explicit testimony of Herodotus; Sparta played hardly any role in the naval victories. Sparta contributed 16 ships at Salamis about 4 percent of the Greek fleet (compare Athens and tiny Aegina who contributed 200 and 30 ships). The Athenians and Aeginetans were noted as the best Greeks who fought that day not the Spartans (Herodotus 8.93). Athenian and Aeginian ships were manned by their own nationals not Spartans ergo Athenians and Aeginetans carried the day at sea.
There really can be no doubt that Themistocles was the architect of the Greek navel victory, Eurybiades was a pure figure-head.

The Spartans provide no officers to the Delian League, they did provide commanders for the Hellenic league, but the arrogance of said officers lead very directly to the formation of the Athenian led Delian league. I really cannot see what leads you to suggest Sparta had any impact at all on Eurymedon; a victory of Athens and the Delian league alone.

At Mycale the Athenians, Corinth and Sicyon carried the day the Spartans arrived only after the Persian line and camp had been overrun for mopping up…
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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#18
Quote:Have you guys heard the story of how a spartan phalanx defeated a rampagaging horde of goths after the goths defeated a roman army in the area (this happend around the fall of rome era apprently)

Possibly you are refering to the story of the fight agaisnt Kostobokoi.
I came to us from Pausanias in his "Phokika". Not sure if the Kostovoki were Goths-historians refer to them as germanic.
Many city states of "allied" status to Rome had the right ot raise forces.
They must have been looking like Roman auxilia equiled with spears.
So possibly fought like a phalanx.
Kind regards
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#19
Well considering greece was in roman hands a long time by the time this happend thats probably correct altho sparta still kept many of its ways of life and became like a tourist attraction to romans
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Josh
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#20
Quote:Well considering greece was in roman hands a long time by the time this happend thats probably correct altho sparta still kept many of its ways of life and became like a tourist attraction to romans
Impossible, citizens were not allowed to have weapons. Non-citizens (which the Greeks would have been as a conquered people) would be seen as rebels!
Is there any information about the ways of Sparta after the Macedonian conquest?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#21
I am pretty sure sparta wasnt part of macedonian conquest as they didnt send troops with alexander and in plutarchs lives in alexanders gifts of thanks he sends to the greeks the spartans are specifically mentioned as being left out
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Josh
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#22
After the Mantinea defeat, the erosion of the Spartan citizen body was such that the remaining families were so impoverised to the extend that the cosntitutions changed to the Geometric Era oligarchy/serfdom.
The attempts of Agis and Kleomenes in the Hellenistic Era to reverse the situation ended tragically. Navis seemed to be succesfull but the the Aetolians aided by the Romans crushed him. After that Sparta became subject city but later during Pompey or Ceasar became allied city.
That meant that it could provide auxiliary formations. Legionaries of Greek origin are mentioned in the roman civil wars. That meant military colonists. At the time of Pausanias there were a number of "allied" or "free" city with some militia. It is possible that this was the combination of troops that fought the Maidoi and Kostovokoi. Very possible that had Spartans among them.
Kind regards
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#23
Thank you guys for all the inputs. I presented on wednesday and got the results back on friday. I got a quite good mark, perfect in fact, thanks to all the inputs here. I didn't get to present much on Sparta as much as I hoped. There was a last minute change in the hope and I had to talk about the Athenian navy to contrast it with the Sparta hoplites.

I am quite furious when the change came since I praticed my 1 minute and 52 sec speech about 20 something times. I was quite shocked also since I also had a computer presentation in the same day and we were planning to use the lunch to make some changes on the slideshow. It went well though and my group have some of the best students in history. Since we didn't go according to plan we went overtime but the teacher was impressed with amount of stuff we had so we didn't lose any marks.

Now that the presentation is over. I got even a bigger one comming up. My summative topic that I have chosen is Roman military vs Chinese military suppose they met in the battlefield. This time I get to write a 1000 word essay and talk for 15 mintues by myself! My teacher found the topic quite interesting so he didn't reject it.

I guess I will spend my next 4 to 5 weeks around the Roman army forums in here and visit the Chinese forums to see watch the debates raging there about the cons and pros of each army. Thanks again.
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Peter Li
History student
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#24
p3t3r1

Rome vs. Han now there is a can of worms… A topic that on most boards can jump to literary dozens and dozens of pages almost over night.

Don’t let the Han fans fool you, Imperial Rome had better artillery - hands down. The Han do have a massed archery advantage with the crossbow (but a static one at that and susceptible to ammunition supply of course).
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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#25
Sorry to here they you couldn't use the original speech you created. It sounded very informative and I'm sure you would have received top marks for it.

You might want to use the “Searchâ€
Steve
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#26
lol if you wanted to do a topic with more raging debates you shoulda did knights vs samurai man if i had a dollar for every topic i saw of that
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Josh
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#27
Yeah lots of posts are on it. Saw Rome vs Han thread on the CHF forums with 79 pages. I only read the first 12 pages but it wasn't very informative. Someone would point the Chinese had something cool and the next post would argue with facts that they don't. Don't really know which poster to believe really. Need to do some more original research and form my own conclusions maybe.
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Peter Li
History student
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#28
Thats probably wise you dont know whats fact and fiction on the net
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Josh
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