A question about general Spartan military

[p3t3r1]

Hi folks. Allow me to introduce myself. I am currently a high school student in Canada who is taking the world civilizations course (European civilizations only). I am very interested in history, espcially military side of the history aspect. I have read the Art of War and other military works since I was small and I never lost the interest. (Mainly graphic novels but I do get the message). To me, military is what history is about.

We are currently studying the Greeks civilizations with the Roman empire following shortly. For one of our assignments we are doing an oral presentation with a group of 3 on the similaries and differences between Athens and Sparta. I immediately choose the military category + social structure. I was given the Sparta military and I am given 2 minutes to present all the important points of the Spartan military (and possibility contrast it with the Athen military. I am not doing Athen military but I know it is composed of mainly triremes rather than hoplites)

Since I was given only a 2 minutes frame to present, I was able to finish my research quickly and have pretty much what i have to say written down. I am wondering if I could show it here and all the experts here could point out what I missed. Here is is a rough guide of what I am going to say on the presentation.

Unlike other Greek city states, Sparta is a forced military society. The helots (conquered slaves) outnumbered the Spartan citizens 10 to 1. In order to survive, Spartans had to take arm or perish. Spartans believed that if they could mobilize all the potential hoplites and train them to the highest degree possible, they could have an overwhelming advantage against her enemies. By 7th century BC, a pure military society has formed in Sparta. Sparta's military service is rather long. Boys are prepared for military since infancy. At 18, they are officially in the military. They are only allowed to retire at the age of 60.

The main backbone of the Spartan military are the hoplites, which means men at arms. The hoplites are a type of heavily armored infantry that carried bronze shield, chestplate, helmet, spear, and a short sword. The hoplites formed into a famous formation called the phalanx. This phalanx formation is basically a formation that give your enemy a wall of shields and spears. The phalanx is 8 ranks deep but only the first 4 ranks fight in the initial assault. Spartan helmets also limited their vision and hearing. They can't turn very easily so they are forced to always push forward in battle.

Sucess of the Spartan military depends on the close cohesion of the units. The units that keep their ranks, not outflanked and did not break usually win the battle. Unless the military in the Homer age, individual bravo is not encouraged.

I think that is about two minutes. I would welcome any suggestions that you all have and I would thank you very much if you could make any. Thanks for reading this thread.

I really need to keep the presentation to the required time frame. On my last presentation I gave a very detaild look at the Phoenician triremes but took much time so I lost alot of marks.

[stevesarak]

Excellent, you covered the basics and to the point. One of the things you’re missing is their commitment to battle. When hoplites battled other Greeks with heavy armor, they won the battle. They felt it was better to die in battle then to withdraw. When you’re fighting someone who will not withdraw even against overwhelming odd, they will stand and fight to the finish, sometimes, that’s what makes the difference. Sometimes it’s the mentality of the warrior that wins battles.

A hoplite only lived for war, whereas the Greeks are remembered for their culture.

I’m sure others can expand on this.

[hoplite14gr]

First of all well come to the forum.
As you wrote in my opinion you will get your good mark.
You could add a though line that the perfection of hoplite warfare by the Spartans saved Greek and by consequence the Western civilization during the Persian Wars.

If you allow me a couple of comments:
Your sources seem to try stress the difference of "liberal" Athens vs "autocratic" Sparta. They are a good place to start but you will learn more and get a more balanced and clearer view by visiting this forum when you have time.

Good luck with your project.

Kind regards

[stevesarak]

Hi Hoplite14gr, my history on the Spartan may be a little rusty so could he clarify your statement “perfection of hoplite warfare by the Spartans saved Greek and by consequence the Western civilization during the Persian Wars.â€

[hoplite14gr]

The round shield and mass charging formation is attributed to king Pheidon of Argos. But the Spartans were the first to improve the movement by unit, trumpet signals and using their Skiritae as Ekdromoi (lightened hoplites).
Their grim determination was the most important factor in moulding the Greek coaletion against the Persians at the Amfictioninc Counsil. Without it there wouldn´t be any resistance because other Greeks were awed by the size of the Persian empire. Thermopylae proved that they put their lives were their words were. The Spartan troops present as marines at Salamis reaffirmed their commitment to fight to the bitter end. Yes, their close combat training came handy during the Salamis boarding actions. They were also responsible for providing officers and trainers for the troops of the Delian Legue and set the basis for the successes of Eurymedon and Mycale not to mention Cypros and Karia.

They have received a lot of negative publicity because their state organistion was somewhat opposite to the Athenian Democracy that served as role model for our modern political sysems.

Knd regards

[stevesarak]

I see now, thanks for clarifying it.

[p3t3r1]

Thank you very much Steve Sarak and hoplite14gr for your inputs. You are right, Steve, I should mention their fighting spirit. It is quite significant to the Spartan military culture. I might need to cut out some of the stuff I had before though since I had it timed exactly at 1 minute at 48 secs with my rough guide. (The rest of the 12 seconds will be used for point to stuff on my poster and breathing)

hoplite14gr, I will also add your point since this is also quite significant to what the Spartans contributed to the Greek culture. You bet I will be visiting this forum alot. I have been looking for forums like these for a while. Since the Romans is my next unit, military will come to play even more. I might even base my final essay/summative on the roman military if a topic is given.

Thanks again.

[spartanwarrior]

Sparta also had a full time army wheres most other city states hoplites where only called up for war.

[hoplite14gr]

"Full Time" is a consept fo rmodern people.
Spartans considered it regular military service.
Effectively they were conscripted from the age of seven to sixty!!!
Other states provided mapower by forcing conscrption on parts of the citizen body for fixed time periods.
Naturally the Spartan Army was better when in conventional tactics.
But Ifikrates and Epameinondas proved that other tactics coluld turn the tables.
Kind regards
S

[Aryaman2]

"Unlike other Greek city states, Sparta is a forced military society. The helots (conquered slaves) outnumbered the Spartan citizens 10 to 1. In order to survive, Spartans had to take arm or perish"
Here you give the impresion that Spartans had no alternative, but in fact it is the other way around, after their victory over Messenians they selected to keep them as slaves, and to do so a military state was required.
I agree with Stefanos in that Spartans had a very bad reputation today, but in their times they were an admired social model for many philosophers, like Plato.

[stevesarak]

"but in fact it is the other way around, after their victory over Messenians they selected to keep them as slaves, and to do so a military state was required.

My history is a little rusty, but weren't the Spartans already a military state when they still lived up north? If I remember correctly, and its possible I'm wrong, I thought that they moved to their current location after defeating the people up north, then moved south because they felt they had a divine rite and the area south was the home of Hercules or somebody famous, sorry cant remember who.

Or am I thinking of somebody else?

[stevesarak]

Went back and did a little research. Oops, it looks like they did establish a military government after their victory over the Messenians

[Dan Diffendale]

My history is a little rusty, but weren't the Spartans already a military state when they still lived up north? If I remember correctly, and its possible I'm wrong, I thought that they moved to their current location after defeating the people up north, then moved south because they felt they had a divine rite and the area south was the home of Hercules or somebody famous, sorry cant remember who.

Or am I thinking of somebody else?

Steve, you've got two stories in mind, the "Dorian Invasion" and the "Return of the Heraclidae" (descendants of Herakles). Our ancient sources are Herodotus (1.56) and Thucydides (1.12.3). If such a movement occurred, it occurred ca. 1200 BCE, that is, before we have local written sources (leaving aside Linear B...). It's hard to see a connection over 500 years' separation. Whatever truth may be in the stories (see, e.g. Robert Drews' appendix I in The Coming of the Greeks for support), I think they tell us more about how contemporaries saw and explained the classical Spartans than about their actual origins.

[hoplite14gr]

Well in the Greek Military Tradition the free man was liable for service.
In the Bronze age the enlisted men were, arround 1200 B.C. equiped by the state. After the palace societies colapsed, troops were self equiped but to maintain armies it was necessary to go fighting if you wanted civil rights.
Spartans were like everybody else in the Early Archaic Era, even colonised Taras and Thourioo and sent people to live in Gortyna Crete.
True they transformed to a military state after the Messenian Wars.
Their lost their social bet when Kleomenes-Pausanias failed tragically in their attempts for social reforms (The real reason for their execution!)
Sparta failed to adapt in changing times amd only under the much vilified Navis just before the Roman occupation solved their social problem.
Too little too late. History is unforgiving for those who fail to act in time.
Kind regards

[spartanwarrior]

Have you guys heard the story of how a spartan phalanx defeated a rampagaging horde of goths after the goths defeated a roman army in the area (this happend around the fall of rome era apprently)