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01-14-2002, 03:46 PM

Anyone had a look at the information about the two board games from antiquity? Petteia from the Greeks and Latrunculi from the Romans. 
 
Some of the reconstructions are quite awful, with rules that require a leap of faith. eg dux's that jump, etc. 
 
To rebuild these games I approached the problem from various directions, eventually I found that I had to immerse myself into the mind of the people from that era to understand what the game was, and how they would play it. 
 
To the 20th century mind the concept of "family" is subtly different to the "familia" known to a Roman of 100bc. Also the phrase "between a rock and a hard place" conjures up a different visual image when compared with "a precipice in front, wolves behind". 
 
If you have some figurines and are interested, I will explain how these games were played. You will also require two boards....one with 8 X 8 squares and the other 8 X 12. 
 
For Petteia 2 sets of 8 Hoplites and Latruniculi 2 sets of 
12 Legionaires and 1 Signifer. Without the use of figurines, concepts will be difficult to visualize or understand. 
 
Petteia is the simpler game. It is a wargame of manouver, mass, momentum and capture by enclosure. 
 
Latrunculi is a game of Civil War between equals. It involves the use of cohorts, walls, forts, manouver, mass, momentum and capture by enclosure. 
 
With the figurines, understanding the game becomes intuative and every battle you have read from Livy, Caesar, Tacitus, etc can be seen. 
 
Let me know if anyone is interested. 
 
Gil 
 
[email protected] Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=gil>Gil</A> at: 1/14/02 4:49:06 pm

Catiline · 01-14-2002, 05:46 PM

Please do explain. I just finished * Spartans, and * Athenians are not far behind htem (I broke and got them out again Jasper )

01-14-2002, 10:56 PM

Petteia is phalanx warfare as seen through the eyes of ancient man. The board and pieces represent the Hoplites and and their field of battle. 
 
The board is 8 X 8 squares with the hoplites starting at opposite sides, each against the edge. Movement uses all the squares, like chess. Movement of a single hoplite is orthogonal. 
ie horizontal and vertical like a rook, but not diagonal. 
 
A column of hoplites can also move any number of squares. 
 
<- X X X X -> this column can move any number of squares left or right. If it was vertical, the same would apply, ie any number of squares up or down. 
 
However, the column can only move one square line abreast. 
 
 
Tactics were quite simple and well understood. 
 
Mass: 
 
If one side has a phalanx of men 20 wide and 15 deep, it will be able to push another phalanx of men 20 wide and 8 deep. 
 
In Petteia : two hoplites adjacent to a single enemy hoplite can move it one space. 
or three hoplites adjacent to a single enemy hoplite can move it two spaces. 
It is always the difference in number that determines the spaces moved. So, three hoplites adjacent to two enemy hoplites would only move one square. 
 
X X X O O-> the whole line would move one square 
 
Momentum: 
 
A single man adjacent to another will have difficulty moving another. However if he was to run at the man, he would be able to displace him. This was also true with a group of men. 
 
Petteia: 
 
A long as a hoplite is NOT adjacent to a single enemy hoplite it can use momentum to displace him one square. Momentum is like having another hoplite to aid displacement. 
So, two hoplites NOT adjacent to enemy hoplite would displace it two squares. Again the displacement is determined by the difference: two hoplites plus momentum = 3 versus 1 hoplite, result 2. 
 
Movement cannot be stopped. ie if your movement enables you to move an enemy 3 squares you cannot stop at 2 squares. It becomes quite apparent how this can be used 
when you view battles like Cannae. 
 
Capture by enclosure: 
 
Today we interpret the capture of a piece as being immediate. 
ie in chess or checkers, the piece captured, is immediately removed. 
 
This will not work in Petteia or Latrunculi because ancient man understood capture differently. The sequence of play is with black starting. 
 
Black removes any enemy pieces that are enclosed. Black then moves. 
 
White removes enemy pieces that are enclosed. White then moves. 
 
It is best understood by realising that capture is not instantaneous, but there is an opportunity for the piece to escape. If you imagine two men attacking a single man, the single man can try to flee. 
 
Understanding this concept is important, because when the phalanx is penetrated, to save men it will be neccessary to retreat and this starts the route. 
 
For the attacker: it is necessary to penetrate the enemy phalanx, and this will involve losses. ie at the end of a players turn, movement will have ended with your own hoplites between enemy hoplites. These pieces are removed at the start of your opponents turn. 
 
Hoplites can be trapped using the board edge. If a single or group of hoplites cannot move and are enclosed by enemy holplites or with the board edge and enemy hoplites, they are removed in the sequence mentioned earlier. 
 
A phalanx is a group of hoplites that are connected othogonally and are adjacent to each other. A phalanx can only move one square at a time, just like a column of men that are moving line abreast. 
 
The penetration of an enemy phalanx will be determined how deep your phalanx is. A phalanx also utilizes momentum. 
 
 
I will edit this tommorrow. Any vague areas will also be cleaned up and if you still don't understand it let me know and I will clarify it. 
 
The easiest way to play it is to imagine yourself watching two phalanxes and the movement that occurs. When playing have one group advance line abreast and you manouver the other group. Once one side loses 4 hoplites, the game ends fairly quickly. 
 
If you want I can set up a game via email as well. 
 
Gil

Catiline · 01-15-2002, 01:10 AM

Thanks for posting Gil 
 
Here are my thoughts. They are in no way criticisms and are perhaps best explained by citing my own stupidity, 
 
A copule ofthings spring to my mind as not being clear 
 
I presume you set up like chess ie along a base line on opposite sides of the 8x8 board. Is the move sequence such that you can split the phalanx so that starting with 
 
XXXXXXXX 
 
you can after the first move get 
 
XXXX 
_____XXXX 
 
then second move you move one rank to get a formation two deep 
 
ie 
XXXX 
XXXX 
 
Can this deeper formation move as a whole or does it count as two phalanxes and so require two turns? If it wants to move forwards (ie up) must it move with individual files or can it do so complete. THe way you talk aboutpenetrating units counting as surrounding i assume it must move forwards in files, but this seems to defeat the point of the phalanx which needs lateral integrity.Surely it works in a more phalanx like fashion if it can move as a whole, the trade off being that it has lost frontage giving the enemy more space to monouvere. 
 
what about a formation of say five in the front line and three behind, giving you more length on one hand but still retaining some of the weight which seems to be crucial to the tactics at a glance. 
 
ie you form 
 
XXXXX 
XXX 
 
If it can move as a whole and say engaged an enemy still in single line formation thus 
 
OOOOOOOO 
_XXXXX 
_XXX 
 
would you get 
 
_OOOOO 
OXXXXXOO 
_XXX 
 
or acounting for momentum and double depth 
 
_OOO 
_XXXOO 
OXXXXXOO 
 
So far as I can tell there's little way back for Player O underthese circumstances, unless a great deal of movement is possible to rearrange his phalanx. THeban tactic is put into effect and a weight bias in the phalanx to one end can irrevocably smash the enemy? In eithre of the above out comes surely none of player Xs pieces are captured? 
 
 
I assuming that each turn a player can move a phalanx whole or in part ie split it by moving part of it forwards or to one side as space allows 
 
also how does an idividual hoplite move. a column can move as far as it likes along its axis but only 1 square forwards 
 
how many enemy pieces must be adjacent to a hoplite to trap it? 2 on opposite sides? 4 to block all movement axis? 
 
There is more but hopefully theanswrs to my above question will deal with some of that 
 
an email game sounds good once I've worked it out 
 
 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ucatiline.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Catiline</A> at: 1/15/02 2:22:45 am

01-15-2002, 05:17 PM

Sorry about the delay. Everytime I viewed setup, the editor re-arranged the boards and when I used backspace I returned to a blank page. 
 
Setup: 
 
.. A B C D E F G H 
1 X X X X X X X X 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 H H H H H H H H

01-15-2002, 05:47 PM

Turn 1: X moves 5 hoplites down one and H moves its phalanx up one. 
 
1 . . . . . . . X X X 
2 X X X X X 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 H H H H H H H H 
8 
 
Turn 2: X moves 3 hoplites across. H just moves. 
 
1 ..... X X X 
2 X X X X X 
3 
4 
5 
6 H H H H H H H H 
7 
8 
 
Turn 3: X moves a single hopite in row 1. H just moves. 
 
1 X ......X X 
2 X X X X X 
3 
4 
5 H H H H H H H H 
6 
7 
8 
 
Turn 4: X moves two hoplites in row 1, one square left. 
H just moves 
 
1 X ...X X 
2 X X X X X 
3 
4 H H H H H H H H 
5 
6 
7 
8

01-15-2002, 06:03 PM

Turn 4: 
 
1 X ...X X 
2 X X X X X 
3 
4 H H H H H H H H 
5 
6 
7 
8 
 
Turn 5: This turn will be broken down into movement, momentum and then mass. It is the start of turn 5 and X moves first. 
 
movement: X's phalanx moves down one square. 
 
1 
2 X ...X X 
3 X X X X X 
4 H H H H H H H H 
5 
6 
7 
8 
 
momentum: 
 
1 
2 
3 X ...X X 
4 X X X X X H H H 
5 H H H H H 
6 
7 
8 
 
mass: 
. A B C D E F G H I 
1 
2 
3 
4 X X X X X H H H 
5 X H X X H 
6 H ...H H 
7 
8 
 
X ends turn. 
H begins its turn 5 and hoplite in position 5B must either move or prior to X moving in turn 6 it is removed. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=gil>Gil</A> at: 1/15/02 9:03:24 pm

Catiline · 01-15-2002, 07:41 PM

thx that fits with what I was thinking. Presumably H in 5B must move or be captured? 
 
what is the benefit of long formations, surely I assume there must be some sort of gain, or it would seem to me that there should be as so much ancient warfare depended on getting longer and therefore flanking position. This must have some benefit or the temptation would be to form into a deep column 
with little frontage and great mass, and use it to punch through an opposing formation, but this doesn't fit with the way were trying to think of this game does it? 
 
As is surely the initiative lies with whover forms a deeper formation and charges first so smashing the opposition. after that there would seem to be little way back for the other side. i realise part of the game is to avoid that occurance and that it would take a number of terms to form that formation during which time it might be vulnerable, but not very as it would be arranging itself some way from the enemy, 
 
eg 
 
to form 
XX 
XX 
XX 
XX 
takes at least 6 moves by my understanding 
ie 
 
Starting with 
XXXXXXXX 
 
1) 
XXXXXX 
_______XX 
 
2) 
XXXX 
____XX 
______XX 
 
3) 
XX 
__XX 
____XX 
______XX 
 
4) 
XX 
XX 
____XX 
______XX 
 
5) 
XX 
XX 
XX 
_______XX 
 
6) 
XX 
XX 
XX 
XX 
 
THat is of course unless you allow for wheeling about say front corners of a formation Unless the Persians fly away like birds, hide in the earth like mice, or leap into a lake like frogs, they will never see their homes again, but will die under our arrows

01-15-2002, 08:27 PM

To obtain the deep formation: 
 
XX 
XX 
XX 
XX 
 
you are correct, it would take 6 turns. 
 
An example of flanking. 
 
Turn 5: H's turn 
 
To avoid capture by enclosure H would move the enclosed hoplite back 1, 2 or 3 squares. In this example I chose 2 squares. 
 
1 
2 
3 
4 X X X X X H H H 
5 X ...X X H 
6 H ...H H 
7 ...H 
8 
 
Turn 6: Assume X continues to use mass to move his phalanx. 
At the end of X's turn it would look like this. 
 
1 
2 
3 
4 ...........X H H H 
5 X X X X H 
6 X ...X X 
7 H H H H 
8 
 
H's turn: The hoplites in row 4 use mass to move the single X hoplite 2 squares to the left. 
 
1 
2 
3 
4 ......X H H H 
5 X X X X H 
6 X ...X X 
7 H H H H 
8 
 
In the next section I will briefly discuss formations. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=gil>Gil</A> at: 1/15/02 11:13:13 pm

01-15-2002, 10:11 PM

I'll discuss what I find works....but you will realize you know it already. 
 
I like to keep one flank against the board edge, a strong centre that I use to push the enemy by use of mass and 1 or 2 hoplites on the other flank to slow any enemy flanking movement. The two hoplites that slow the enemy flankers will rarely stop any enemy incursions. All they do is buy time to eliminate the hoplites my phalanx has trapped and then enables the phalanx to turn and face the new threat. 
 
Against an opponent who uses a long front this formation is useful for disrupting a formation: 
 
 
1 ......X X 
2 X X X X X 
3 ........X 
4 
5 H H H H H H H H 
6 
7 
8 
 
 
If it is X's turn, there will be multiple momentums occurring as the phalanx moves into the enemy phalanx. 
 
First phase: movement prior to momentum 
1 
2 ......X X 
3 X X X X X 
4 ........X 
5 H H H H H H H H 
6 
7 
8 
 
2nd Phase: first momentum 
 
1 
2 
3 ......X X 
4 X X X X X 
5 H H H X H H H H 
6 
7 
8 
 
3rd phase: 2nd momentum 
 
1 
2 
3 .........X 
4 ......X X 
5 X X X X X H H H 
6 H H H H H 
7 
8 
 
4th phase: mass 
 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 X X X X X H H H 
6 H H X X H 
7 ......H X 
8 .........H 
 
That ends X's turn, with the enemy formation split. 
 
Next I'll discuss how capture works.

Catiline · 01-15-2002, 11:23 PM

Ahhh multiple momentum, that was going to be my next question 
 
there are various things that look hopeful about this set of rules at least from the point of view of the game in Greek terms. Probably me seeing what I want to more than anything else, but keeping one flank on the board edge reminds me of the shuffle to the side suffered by the hoplite phalanx. Don't worry about how my mind works tho' 
 
I did a quick search earlier, and the rule sets i found suggest that you can't use the edge to capture pieces. Why have you gone the other way.(Most of the rules ilooked at seemed to be the same set reproduced, and I only had a few minutes to look)

01-16-2002, 01:32 AM

Elimination of an enemy hoplite occurs through capture, then removal. It is a two phase occurance, during which an enemy hoplite might have an opportunity to escape. Sometimes this opportunity is not available and in some cases it may be beneficial to sacrifice a friendly hoplite to gain an advantage. 
 
The following examples show X as being enclosed by enemy hoplites. 
 
1 
2 H X H 
3 
4 ...H H 
5 H X X H 
6 ...H H 
7 
8 
 
 
 
1 
2 ...H H 
3 H X X H 
4 H X H 
5 ...H 
6 
7 
8 
 
The next examples show the board edge being use to restrict movement and this is also enclosure: 
 
1 X H 
2 H 
3 
4 H H 
5 X X H 
6 H H 
7 
8 
 
1 X X H 
2 H H 
3 
4 
5 
6 H H H 
7 X X X H 
8 X X H 
 
The sequence for play: 
 
Black is first: 
Black removes enemy hoplites that are enclosed. 
Black moves. 
 
White follows: 
White removes enemy hoplites that are enclosed. 
White moves. 
 
repeats with Black, then white, etc 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=gil>Gil</A> at: 1/16/02 3:52:16 am

01-16-2002, 01:50 AM

The other rules don't stand up to repeated gameplay. From what I have been able to determine, they are just someones interpretation of how the game might have been played. This may have been based on their knowledge of checkers/chess and then they tried to give it an ancient flair. 
 
The interpretation I followed, was that the game being military, its designers would use military tactics as seen by themselves and incorporate those concepts into the gameplay. 
 
I felt this adage applied: 
"Dux vitae ratio -logic is the guide of life" 
 
..Gil 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=gil>Gil</A> at: 1/16/02 2:35:16 pm

Catiline · 01-16-2002, 01:25 PM

The other sets i read myself seemed to think they lacked something 
 
I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse about this, but it strikes me as the best way to get a decent set of rules is test them to destruction within the bounds of logic.

01-16-2002, 01:46 PM

After you have tried some practice games we can set up an email game. The games are fairly quick, initial manouvering and setting up a phalanx is what eats up the turns. The clash of the phalanx, the grinding down of the opposition and eventual route occurs rapidly. The game terminates when one side has less than 4 hoplites because it becomes a mopping up excercise then, rather than phalangial warfare. 
 
A game could also be set up on this website by use of two messages that are continually editted. 
 
..A B C D E F G H 
1X X X X X X X X 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8H H H H H H H H 
 
When my turn is complete I would use the code word A. 
 
You would edit my move into your message and complete your turn and use the code word B. 
 
I would edit my message with your ..... code word C etc. 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=gil>Gil</A> at: 1/16/02 5:53:46 pm

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