Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Why did the scutum have a horizontal grip?
#31
I have seen references to the carry strap on a shield and it makes me wonder if (as has been suggested to me) that they *might* have fought with the strap over the shoulder. It means to me that you could go from holding the shield "up" to pushing it "out" with the strap taking weight. It also means to swing the shield around you are swinging it on the strap and not moving it with your arm/shoulder so much.

Just some pre coffee thoughts, so take them for what they are worth (brain fog and all).

I will be mounting a horizontal grip and strap to my fighting scuta this weekend and doing some practice with it. I will let you know my thoughts after I have used it that way.
Chris McVey
Reply
#32
Well, I've said this before, and having used both vertical and horizontal grips, I find the palm down horizontal grip the least muscular effort.

The vertical grip requires constant muscle to hold the shield, as its weight naturally pulls agains the thumb side, so it requires effort to hold the shield, even when more or less relaxing the arm, and letting the shield "hang low". The horizontal grip only requires that the fingers stay curved around the handle, and most of the forearm muscles can relax, yet the shield still stays up.

If you have to carry it very far, horizontal wins every time. The angled grip described above might very well be the most ergonomic, but it would restrict movement of the shield without rotation, which doesn't work very well with a semi-cylindrical shield. Its purpose is to cover as much of the body as possible, with the least movement needed. Pulling the scutum close to the body provides a huge area of protection for the least amount of muscular effort. It just didn't happen by accident that they used this arrangement.

Anyway, there was probably less punching with the center of the shield than some like to think. By extending the shield in that way, it's no hard task for an enemy to reach around the shield and either pull it aside, or stab/slash beyond it. Striking with the lower shield edge still keeps the shield carrier further out of reach of the enemy.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#33
As Henk-Jan points out, reconstructed scuta and clipea are made after the found originals.

When you use a round shield is doesn't matter if the grip is horizontal or vertical.
In line it is carried with the grip vertical and in "free"fight is doesn't matter as long as you can use it the way you like.

You can get very technical about styles and all, just try it and you will see what automaticly happens whith the shield in a training/battle setting.

A carrying strap connected whith the shield can/will hinder your free movement of the shield when the strap is not long enough.
Also the strap can be a target for a spear fighter to catch the strap and dis-shield the opponent or block his shield, even putting the opponent of balance .
This is a part of our normal training.
Regards

Garrelt
-----------------------------------------------------
Living History Group Teuxandrii
Taberna Germanica
Numerus I Exploratores Teuxandrii (Pedites et Equites)
Ludus Gladiatorii Gunsula
Jomsborg Elag Hrafntrae
Reply
#34
From Skinny Head -- Hey, any of you scadian types that fight as Romans have any input? I know the "style" of fighting is different, but there might be some good insight into the leverage and stability of the horizontal grip.


I have played SCA combat off an on for the past 25 years or so. I occasionally use a large oval scuta as part with my late Roman impression. You are right that SCA combat is basically stick tag, fast and hard stick tag, but stick tag all the same. Its going to be different than using real blades to risk real lives. But I think it offer some insight into the question.

In my experience, a vertical grip makes a center grop shield far more effective in combat than a horozontal grip. Sure, there are strengths and weaknesses for both options, but I think the vertical wins out. for starters your head block is much quicker. Ofensive shield use is quicker -- the vertical grip gives you more options, including the ability to move the shield from side to side with greater speed and strength. The one area where a horozontal grip pgives an advantage is blocking below the knee -- an illegal target in SCA combat conventions.

Here is a youtube link from a tourney in Northern CA several weeks ago. A friend of mine is using a slightly curved oval scutum as part of his 1st Century BC gallic impression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JuriSxuKGE

All that said, its far less work to carry around a horozontal grip scuta, particularly a curved one. Its just not partical carry a vertical grip shield, especially a heavy one, more than a short distance.

So I think that the horozontal grip was more about getting the shield to the fight and keeping it there for the duration than about a head to head decision on combat effectiveness. I think its also important to remember that the combat effectiveness of a roman army unit is less about the prowess of individual legionaries and more about their collective prowess.
Allectus
Alec Arago
Spreckels, CA
Reply
#35
Well, it's fun to discuss what we think about all the aspects of what we often call reenactment, but what really matters in the end for those who want to "get it right" is what the ancients did. Someone might decide that a particular angle of scutum grip feels right to their hand, but did the Romans actually use that grip? Were there tactics what we imagine them to be? Sometimes those questions just simply can't be answered.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#36
Did the Romans seem to have had horizontal grips on their shields? Yes.

Were the Romans effective in battle, including the use of their shields, which is attested to in source texts? Yes.

Do modern re-enactors train with double weight shields every day, which obviously does a lot of things to the left arm and wrist, and upper body? No.

Therefore, can the use of the scutum in anger be judged by modern re-enactors use of it? No, unless they train every day with double weight, or use half weight shields.

IMHO.

I have to point out that when Pullo and Vorenus did their famous leaps over the pallisade into the thick of the enemy, one managed to keep the other covered with his shield while fending off a hoard. There was also a centurion in a naval battle who battered the entire enemy crew into submission with his shield after losing his right hand to an axe. Some modern conclusions need some deeper thought applied.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Scutum Grip Cobra 40 10,513 10-22-2005, 09:09 AM
Last Post: Robert Vermaat

Forum Jump: