Why did the scutum have a horizontal grip?

[Dan Howard]

I've often wondered at depictions of Greek hoplites with the apsis/hoplon. Many are shown completely naked except for shield, helmet and greaves.

It was the style at the time to depicted heroes and gods naked.

...which means...*pause*

LEATHER ARMOR!!

Bah!

:wink:

[Goffredo]

Hi
I was impressed by video sequences.

But I have trouble imagining these duels in a battle with some type of formation fighting. Indeed I do not think ancient, late ancient, or medieval battles were just a bunch of single duels (like in the movies) unless everything degenerated. This might have happened in certain tactical situations where some fragmentation of fighting took place naturally. Ideally the single soldier was trained to cope and on the other hand warriors probably dreamed of one-on-one duels as when fighting for supremacy in tribal squabbles. But I am convinced that in battle everyone tried to maintain formation. Hence dueling is only part of the story.

The vidoes make me convinced that to clash shields was a real gamble! Only a really mean warrior would risk it as he a had a real chance wounding/killing the opponent, but it was very risky and you needed coolness and experience to outwit the opponent in a fraction of a second. A nervous or unexperienced fighter would avoid it as much as possible. No wonder a lot of fencing with spears took place. Why? The grip of a shield was a real weakness! It was easy for an attacker to rotate the adversary's shield by pushing on its edge. A wrist at the center could not stop rotations! One had to use the sword hand to push or cling or desperately move the arm and body in a unnatural way. The shield clash was very drammatic and could end very quickly in someone getting wounded/killed.


p.s. I always gathered that a long rectangular and curved scutum with horizontal grip was not for single duels but it was good for close formation fighting where there was a clashing of shields. For one to push a scutum sideways implied that the pusher expose himself to the thrust of the gladius. In formation fighting it would not be very wise to wrestle the scutum of the legionary in front of you if his buddies were close enough to stab you. This is generally true. Some of the duel sequences are certainly not applicable to battles; e.g. those where the duellants change position as they perform their dance in a mortal embrace.

p.p.s. In always believed the phasing out of scutum was due to increasing fraction of tactical situations where old massive battle close formations were not suited.

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Hello!!

All these fighting technics are efficient in battle order line. It is not a duel simulation but a really variety of technics using in battle order. we try another simulation; three swordmen against three swordmen in line and don't moving place.

The scutum using is important to create an natural cover for the right and left side co-militio. The arms distance protect the soldier to the curt weapon. The scramasax for example (50 cm blade) don't passing the side of the shield and don't touch the warrior.

We don't make the scutum side hit on the adversary face cause to security. But some test the clash the upper part to the ennemy shield with the side of our scutum touch faces and create a "passing shot" to the blade.

If we follow the vegetius advice; (the right foot go the roman weapon hit) we have all place to use scutum in dynamic view... Spatha and scutum is most active than the classical rectangular shield and gladius. The spatha touch in first. Long sword and lenticular scutum is most efficent. The rectangular shield side by side don't permit to move and use the shield like the lenticular or round shield side by side (three foot distance beetwen each warriors: the scutum are side by side, not side on side...)

Of course. The combat create some good occasion and the warrior touch left or right ennemy in front him if they are not cover. Face, arms and leg are the target and part of body most touching by blade and offensive scutum.

Another experience we think that the Hasta is not use (except for the tactical technics against cavalry) like thrusting weapon, but primary like an throwing weapon. Some simulation show that if you use the hasta like thrust weapon (ex: under the shoulder or like the ancient hoplite...) the swordman with his scutum always come in the adversary and push the hasta with the shield and touch easy the adversary.

For all the video technics, we have just need to the Vegatius distance to using the scutum and sword like that. in pushing situation the co-militio bottom the first line figther push on the back to resist and the soldier try to touch the ennemy and conserve the protection scutum distance. The most important point don't breaking down by the massive number to the ennemy pushing. But they must conserve a minimal place to use the sword and the shield because the game si not a Rugby or american soccer rules to destroy the warriors lines but but kill and hurt the ennemy to destroy the lines!!

[Robert Vermaat]

If we follow the vegetius advice; [...](three foot distance beetwen each warriors: the scutum are side by side, not side on side...)

Damien, where does Vegetius say 3 feet between each soldier? In my translation he says 3 feet for each soldier, that is 3 feet of space for each soldier, not between one man and the next.

Another experience we think that the Hasta is not use (except for the tactical technics against cavalry) like thrusting weapon, but primary like an throwing weapon. Some simulation show that if you use the hasta like thrust weapon (ex: under the shoulder or like the ancient hoplite...) the swordman with his scutum always come in the adversary and push the hasta with the shield and touch easy the adversary.

But why would you use the hast underarm for? If the hasta was a throwing weapon, than why make it so long? Besides, why compare it to an ancient hoplite when this sort of fighting is alien to Roman tactics? If Roman armies fought in a phalangial manner, that never meant they fought like hoplites!

For all the video technics, we have just need to the Vegatius distance to using the scutum and sword like that. in pushing situation the co-militio bottom the first line figther push on the back to resist and the soldier try to touch the ennemy and conserve the protection scutum distance. The most important point don't breaking down by the massive number to the ennemy pushing. But they must conserve a minimal place to use the sword and the shield because the game is not a Rugby or american soccer rules to destroy the warriors lines but but kill and hurt the ennemy to destroy the lines!!

I agree, it's not a pushing game or something like that, but you need closed ranks so that the enemy can't push inside your formation. If one man would fall with 3 feet left as well as to the right of him, a huge gap would open for an enemy to push into. Especially a cuneus (where pushing is part of the formation) could then easily 'pry apart' a formation that was too loose.[/quote]

[Felix]

Gladatorial combat didn't use long scuta, but some fighters certainly used curved rectangular shields. As I recall, they often had at least one greave, which would make up for the shorter shield. They were armed with straight swords as well as the Thracians with bent swords.

It would seem that one-to-one combat with a curved rectangular shield and straight short sword worked reasonably well.

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Yes Valerius another language Mistake to me... Three feet is the total space for each soldier... (I wish you understand better like that...) Sorry. Rest the close fomation is the side shield to side shield. the shield close the spaces rank...

The hasta use like hoplite or under the shoulder is just one of a lot experience to show the inaccurency to the thrusting Hasta using...

I don't speak to the classical rectangular shield in Gladiatorial combat but in close formation in front battle line. This scutum can't be use like the lenticular scutum. The possibility use to the rectangular shield is really poor... Right, I know the Mirmillon fighting technic is really static. There are any mosaic to show gladiators Hurt the ennemy with the below part of his scutum in direct offensive hurt but it is not enought...

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

One possibily to use the Oval lenticular shield like the rectangular shield of course in defence against a direct attack with the below side shield

[Robert Vermaat]

I liked your movie fragments very much (I downloaded all of them to get a good look), but I agree with others that some of this might be very different when the opponents are facing each other in a close-ranked unit. I mean, you can't change place that well in a close formation. Have you practised that too?

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

The movies are no longer available... any chance of reposting them?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEqui ... hield.html

check this page for photos of some original finds...

M.VIB.M.

[Shinyhead]

Hey, any of you scadian types that fight as Romans have any input?
I know the "style" of fighting is different, but there might be some good insight into the leverage and stability of the horizontal grip.

I was strongly encouraged to use a strapped shield, but I may play with a horizontal grip scuta (my big scuta is ready for sparring except for the grip). If I find anything notable I will let you know- understand I am still really green at all this though. :oops:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

well i rather have a horizontal gripped scutum than a Greek style one!!

much more leverage!

M.VIB.M.

[PMBardunias]

The hasta use like hoplite or under the shoulder is just one of a lot experience to show the inaccurency to the thrusting Hasta

What of the gladiatorial combat between hoplomachos, armed with a hasta and small domed buckler and other gladiator types with sword and scutum? I'm thinking of that gladiator mosaic from North Africa showing the spear-armed man the victor and the large cruved scutum of the loser on the ground.

[Tarbicus]

Stand up and punch the air and you'll probably punch with your fist horizontal. It's completely unnatural to hold such a heavy thing vertically, and could end up with your wrist in real trouble, especially over protracted periods of time. For a lighter shield it's different I'm sure, but that's not the subject here.

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Actually as a veteran Martial artist and student of human movement, your radius and ulna are only in straight alignment when your hands are at the figurative position of 10 & 2 like when you put them on a steering wheel. That said, whenever you punch if your bones are in a state of torsion, there is a danger inherent there. Straight bones = the greatest/safest transition of energy. So in actuality, the ideal anatomical placement of the scutum handle would be at about 55 degrees or so. This would allow the stronger shoulder muscles to more effortlessly hike the shield up if necessary, afford a much stronger punching angle and still be very comfortable on the march.