What are these objects?

[Crispvs]

Just to play devil's advocate here, I notice that the short figure on the Caracalla coin who appears to be carrying a falx seems only to have one visible leg. This is also the case with the two men flanking the emperor but for the short figure it looks as if the artist had space to add a second leg without confusing it with the leg of the soldier next to him. This he did not do. When I first looked at it I had the impression of a trophy topped with a masked helmet! I say this not because I actually think it IS a trophy (its height would argue against it in any case) but to remind us that there may be other possibilities we may not be seeing.

This is, of course, not to belittle the good work done by Peronis, who has done a good job of matching evidence with evidence not once here but twice! A laud point is therefore added to his account for achieving what I have only managed once or twice and have never really got around to publishing in this forum or elsewhere.

Crispvs :wink:

[Arthes]

Just to play devil's advocate here, I notice that the short figure on the Caracalla coin who appears to be carrying a falx seems only to have one visible leg. This is also the case with the two men flanking the emperor but for the short figure it looks as if the artist had space to add a second leg without confusing it with the leg of the soldier next to him. This he did not do. When I first looked at it I had the impression of a trophy topped with a masked helmet! I say this not because I actually think it IS a trophy (its height would argue against it in any case) but to remind us that there may be other possibilities we may not be seeing.

This is, of course, not to belittle the good work done by Peronis, who has done a good job of matching evidence with evidence not once here but twice! A laud point is therefore added to his account for achieving what I have only managed once or twice and have never really got around to publishing in this forum or elsewhere.

Crispvs :wink:

I can see what looks like a solider with three legs....next to the guy with the mask...lol

[Primitivus]

On the column of Marcus Aurelius, there is a scene of the Emperor addressing his troops and in front of him is a Dacian Falxman as a bodyguard it seems. So your coins could indeed depict a personal guard. You will see that he, alone, is keeping an eye on the assembled crowd as all the others are looking at the Emperor!

This certainly bears more investigation. Are there literary references to Dacian bodyguards?

[FlaviusCrispus]

Crispvs writes:

Just to play devil's advocate here, I notice that the short figure on the Caracalla coin who appears to be carrying a falx seems only to have one visible leg. This is also the case with the two men flanking the emperor but for the short figure it looks as if the artist had space to add a second leg without confusing it with the leg of the soldier next to him. This he did not do. When I first looked at it I had the impression of a trophy topped with a masked helmet! I say this not because I actually think it IS a trophy (its height would argue against it in any case) but to remind us that there may be other possibilities we may not be seeing.

Well, there are possibilities, and there are probabilities. Given the fact that the "post" of the possible trophy has a foot on it, I'd say the probabilities are, "falx-bearing imperial body guard 99.99%, trophy with face mask helmet 0.001%." On coins, particularly complex reverse images, you often get spacial compressions in which the number of legs and limbs are truncated. On many a quadriga, the horses have only enough legs for a biga...

I also checked on some other versions of the "emperor being hailed as imperator" platform scene on the reverses of Roman coins. A few interesting observations: The attendant/bodyguard standing at the foot of the platform, facing the other way (that is, back toward the mass of soldiers) seems to occurr in most or all of them (I found them on coins of Galba, Trajan, and Marcus Aurelius). But the apparent Dacian falxes associated with these figures only start showing up in the Severan era, and continue through the reign of Gordian III. I'll post some more images later.

As far as the whole image goes...



I think I recognize it now... it's from a big, thick coffee table book called "The Art of Rome." What a great image!

Regarding the segmentata-clad soldiers holding oval shields, I don't believe these are auxiliaries, at least not just based on the use of the oval shield. There seems to be a consensus that the oval legionary scutum came back into use (indeed, if it ever went out) in the mid-late second century. Nor to I think they're just depicting legionaries in "traditional" equipment— that would be the hellenistic muscle curiass / hoplon / attic helmet combo.

Other interesting details: The legionaries wearing segs are also wearing pteruges with hemispherical "lappets" around the bottom rim of the seg. This seems a distinctly different look than is seen on Trajan's column, and one I was trying to replicate with my mid-second century optio impression here:

http://www.legionsix.org/FTMAC05703.JPG

Anyway, the deeper we look, the more interesting it gets! Thanks again for all the help!

[Tarbicus]

Auxilliaries wearing segs, maybe?

Troublemaker ;-) )

Regarding the segmentata-clad soldiers holding oval shields, I don't believe these are auxiliaries, at least not just based on the use of the oval shield.

Party poopers. One day you'll be doing this .... hock:

[Caballo]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/p...xman00.jpg

I do not know the book's title, but another member of RAT 'Caballo' (Paul B) has the book. It's where I got the image.

I found it in a small book called "Roman Imperial Sculpture" by D.E.S. Strong (8 pics of MA's column).
Regarding legionaries with oval shields, here is another scan from MA's column- shields oval, rectangular, almost hexagonal......

[Caballo]

And here's another from the Arch of Severus with thanks to Flavius. Are these soldiers wearing covers over their helmets?

[FlaviusCrispus]

Ave, Caballo—

Thanks for posting these pix. The top two are from the Aurelian column, of course. The second photo has a row of soldiers in lorica segs, all carrying shields of differing shapes— rectangular, oval, and a sort of "clipped oval" that sort of resembles the so-called "Augustan" shields. Feugere, in "Weapons of the Romans," shows a different view of the same scene and notes that the "sculptor has tried to avoid repitition by changing the shapes of the shields," although the soldiers are otherwise in similar poses. But it might reflect that there was a diversity of shield shapes in the later 2nd century army.

But Feugere omits what to me is the most interesting part of the scene— the guy at the front of the line wearing a segmentata and carrying a vexillum. Now that's interesting! I think every standard bearer on Trajan's column is wearing either mail or scale.

Other items of interest: Soldiers still wearing their swords on the right, and they still resemble gladii, though some of the scabbards have blunt or rounded ends. Some of the soldiers are still wearing the baltaeus with dangling apron, but it looks quite short. There looks to be a mixture of enclosed shoes and caligae.

The image from the second post is, I think, from the Arch of Severus. Here are a bunch of guys wearing Hellenistic Phrygian (or "smurf") helmets, muscle cuirasses and pteruges, and knee-breeches. Very odd equipment for Romans, seen on no other municipal monument, to my knowledge anyway. Now, Caracalla supposedly raised a unit of Macedonian-style phalangites in imitation of Alexander the Great. The Phrygian helmet is very much of Alexander's era, so might these be members of this unit?

[Caballo]

Flavius- thanks. You are quite right re the second photo coming from the Arch of Severus (memo to self- do not post late after driving a long way). I'll edit my original post.

Here are the other Marcus Auelius column photos I have, with some commentary from the book:-
"The Miracle of the Rain: on the left Roman soldiers on the march. A great down-pour from the sky god has overwhelmed barbarian men and horses and is bringing refreshment to the tired Roman troops (See Dio Cassio and others)"

"A massacre of barbarians"

[Crispvs]

Peronis,

The falxman in Roma Antiqua is Tony Drake, all around good guy and maker of rather fine weapons (during his spare time away from working for Tyne and Wear Museums Service), including the aforementioned falx and the ring pommel swords for Fronto's proposed Sarmatian group.

Crispvs

[FlaviusCrispus]

The falxman in Roma Antiqua is Tony Drake, all around good guy and maker of rather fine weapons (during his spare time away from working for Tyne and Wear Museums Service), including the aforementioned falx and the ring pommel swords for Fronto's proposed Sarmatian group.

Oooh— lots here of interest! Does Roma Antiqua have a website, and is there a picture of Tony anywhere on it?

Also, does anyone know how I can contact him about acquiring one of those ring-pommel swords?

[Aluscladiusmaximus]

In the Jewish religion they use a palm frond but it is an unopend palm frond which is held closed by tieing a loop around it. They look just like the objects on the coins.

Aulus Cladius Maximus

[FlaviusCrispus]

In the Jewish religion they use a palm frond but it is an unopend palm frond which is held closed by tieing a loop around it. They look just like the objects on the coins.

I appreciate the input! However, I have never seen a palm frond depicted in this fashion on a coin. Neither has Cathy Lorber, the numismatic scholar who first asked me what these objects might be, and she has seen tens of thousands of ancient coints.

Would the Roman army have adopted a Jewish tradition, or is there any evidence the Romans used an unopened frond as a victory symbol? As I noted before, palm fronds abound on Greek and Roman coins, but they are always shown open and "shaggy," not bound or closed. As here:



and here...



and here...



I think that astonishing image from the Column of Marcus Aurelius and the tombstone image posted by Peroni have more or less put the matter to rest, at least as far as I am concerned. Falxes they are.

[aitor iriarte]

David,

Roma Antiqua's website is [url:2kdmisqf]http://www.roma-antiqua.co.uk/index.htm[/url]
Scroll to the bottom and click the far left pic, the third to the right is Tony. (Also the first from the left on the top pic )

Aitor