Units in Hispania

[taira1180]

Hi! I have found for the late empire the following units in the notitia dignitatum at the orders of the count in Hispania :

Ascarii seniores.
Ascarii iuniores.
Sagittarii Nervii.
Exculcatores iuniores.
Tubantes.
Felices seniores.
Invicti seniores.
Victores iuniores.
Invicti iuniores Britones.{same as Inv. iun. Britanniciani.}
Brisigavi seniores.
Salii iuniores Gallicani.{same as Salii Gallicani.}
Fortenses.
Propugnatores seniores.
Septimani seniores.
Vesontes.
Undecimani.

What i wanted to know, is were i can get any info about the localization of this units.
Thanks for any help.

[FAVENTIANVS]

"The Septimani seniores would appear to be part of the old Legio VII Gemina Felix, long stationed at Legio (modern Leon), which is exactly where the Praefectus legionis septimae geminae is still stationed according to the Notitia. Other units deriving from the same legion would appear to be the Septimani iuniores in the Magister Peditum's Italian command and the Septimani Gemina under the Magister Militum per Orientem, and possibly the Septimani in the Magister Equitum's Gallic command (these last however could equally also derive from the Septimani Claudiae stationed in Moesia primae).

The Vesontes appear to be a legionary detachment that was based in Vesontium (modern Besançon in France) in the not-too-distant past, but which one I have not been able to determine.

The Undecimani would appear to be part of the old Legio XI Claudia Pia Fidelis, another detachment of which is listed as serving under the Magister Praesentalis II in the eastern half of the Empire.

The Fortenses would appear to be a detachment of a legion bearing the title Fortis, eg. Legio II Traiana Fortis Germanica which is listed under the Comes limitis Aegypti and Dux Thebaidos, or possibly the otherwise unattested Legio X Fortenses in Ammianus (see the discussion under the Dux Palaestinae). Perhaps Legio VI Hispana, known only from a mid-third century inscription, was called the Fortenses. Alternatively, it may be that the Fortenses detachments (another separate legionary unit bearing the name Fortenses is listed in the Notitia - a comitatenses unit under the Comes Africae, with a separate shield pattern) acquired their names after being split off from a parent legion, in which case they could derive from Legio VII, are any other legion for that matter. The position of the Spanish Fortenses, at the top of the list of legions under the Comes, would seem to indicate it had been in one of the field armies for some considerable time.

The origins of the Propugnatores seniores are hard to discern. Propugnatores simply means the 'Defenders' and gives no clue as to their origin.

Note that a Comes Hispenias does not appear in the index of the Notitia, and there is no illustration showing any towns he controls, nor indeed any other indication that he exists other than the fact a Comes is recorded as controlling the above troops in Spain. Jones believes that this is an indication that the office is a recent creation, and cites Hydatius' mention of a Comes Hispaniarum in 420 AD; and concludes because no cavalry are mentioned, the Comes had to make do with foederati cavalry (ie. cavalry provided by barbarians under their own leaders rather than Roman officers).

This is all plausible, but given that the neighbouring Comes Africae commands an inordinate amount of cavalry, I can't but wonder if the unusually large number assigned to the Comes Africae actually includes units that should belong to the Comes Hispenias and whose name has been omitted (or rather deleted) from the list. The absence of any references to the Comes Hispenias might then still reflect a new office, as Jones suspects, or instead that the office was destroyed along with its troops during the decade in which the Vandals, Suevi, Alans and then the Goths completely overran Spain.

In favour of the latter interpretation, I wopuld consider that any new Comes Hispanias established in ca. 420 AD would surely be expected to have had to draw his troops from those in Africa and/or Gaul rather than recruit an entirely new force (for surely the previous Spanish army did not survive the decade anywhere near intact). However, the troop listing given to the Count in Spain includes not a single pseudocomitatenses unit, as we might expect from a newly constituted force created in 420, neither does it include any units named after 5th century rules; again, something that would be expected of a force dating to 420 AD. It seems to me that the Spanish force is in fact recording the state of affairs, not in 420 AD, but from the end of the 4th century, and that the omission of references to the Count in the Notitia reflects how this province's forces (and its beauracracy) had been destroyed in the meantime, and while the officers had been (almost entirely) deleted from the register, the military units had not.

This would of course go against Jones' conviction that the distribution part of the register is a reasonably accurate list of the forces as they existed in ca. 420 AD; it would imply that it too is a chronological mess. As with so many issues regarding the Notitia, certainty is impossible. Certainly the limitanei units, with their titles bearing Spanish provincial names (Gallicam referring to Spanish Gallaecia and not French Gallia), would appear to have been stationed in Spain for quite some time. However as these units are listed as being under the overall command of the Magister Peditum rather than under the Comes, this might be seen as support for Jones' hypothesis. Any previous (and subsequently defunct) Comes Hispenias would presumably have had control of these limitanei units, and the only way we would find them listed in this case under the Magister Peditum would be if they not only survived the decade but also were reassigned and recorded as being reassigned to the Magister Peditum. Given how few of the non-limitanei units are listed elsewhere implying their 'survival', this seems unlikely as then we would have to come up with a theory as to why so many limitanei units survived the decade when so few non-limitanei units did."


Taken from: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson ... enias.html

[taira1180]

Wow, thanks for the reply. I know that in the V century, the Iberian Peninsula still had some troops, usually at the cities (probably limitanei). Most of the limitanei would continue to exist and serve with the wisigoths, since someone must do that kind of job. But i was surprised to see in the notitia the existence of comitatensis in the peninsula.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Well, with the Vandals down there, they should have been usefull, I think...

[Primitivus]

Most of the limitanei would continue to exist and serve with the wisigoths, since someone must do that kind of job.

There was a difference, of course, between conquerors who came merely for plunder and those who desired to exert their rule over the subjugated. The former cared not about the destruction they wrought; the more, the better, in most of their minds. The latter would prefer to preserve (with modification suited to their own agendas) the institutions which they had captured. If you could persuade some of the local troops and "police" forces to change their allegiance, it would free your own armies to exercise oversight and continue to expand your borders (or at least protect the new boundaries of your realm).

[taira1180]

By the way, troops who were serving as guarnisons in the cities, would be members of the limitanei or were something completly different?

[Robert Vermaat]

Wow, thanks for the reply. I know that in the V century, the Iberian Peninsula still had some troops, usually at the cities (probably limitanei). Most of the limitanei would continue to exist and serve with the wisigoths, since someone must do that kind of job. But i was surprised to see in the notitia the existence of comitatensis in the peninsula.

Limitanei would not usually been guarding the cities. Limitanei would be on the borders, guarding the mountain passes or the coast. It is the comitatenses that we see as connected to cities, but not usually as city guards.
I doubt that limitanei would serve under the Visigoths. For one, the system may have easily broke down so that there would have been no money to pay these troops. Another reason would be that the Visigoths would not automatically trust the limitanei.. We hear from Hydatius of Gallaecian locals who actually take up arms against the Suevi, scoring victories before reaching some form of accomodation. These men may have been either former limitanei or possibly local hill-men.

By the way, troops who were serving as guarnisons in the cities, would be members of the limitanei or were something completly different?

Well, i could imagine limitanei being withdrawn to the cities, but that would be strange (it would leave the borders unguarded) and unparallelled. Either these soldiers were town militia, or possibly the comitatenses tied to the city, but probably not there during campaigning season.

[taira1180]

"Limitanei would not usually been guarding the cities. Limitanei would be on the borders, guarding the mountain passes or the coast. It is the comitatenses that we see as connected to cities, but not usually as city guards."
But in Hispania, the only border are the mountains between Gaul and Hispania; i doubt that all limitanei were concentrated there. I mean, by the notitia dignitatum they were 16 units of comitatus and an not specified number of limitanei; in theory (even if each unit was reduced to less than 1000 men), that should represent something like 10000 soldier, a great number of troops. Since the several invaders attacked the peninsula easily, that probably means that the roman troops was probably much lesser. I know that attacking the wisigoths would be risky, but the suevi and alani would be (if those high numbers were true) easy to destroy.

[aitor iriarte]

Guys, you're forgetting the 'old style' units quoted in Occ. XLII:

Hispaniae:

In provincia Callaecia:
Praefectus legionis septimae geminae, Legione.
Tribunus cohortis secundae Flaviae Pacatianae, Paetaonio.
Tribunus cohortis secundae Gallicae, ad cohortem Gallicam.
Tribunus cohortis Lucensis, Luco.
Tribunus cohortis Celtiberae, Brigantiae, nunc Iuliobriga.

In provincia Tarraconensi:
Tribunus cohortis primae Gallicae, Veleia.

We don't know about their status but they mostly 'smell' to limitanei and at least several of them were stationed in cities (Legio, Lucus and Veleia) with late Roman walls.

Aitor

[Robert Vermaat]

But in Hispania, the only border are the mountains between Gaul and Hispania; i doubt that all limitanei were concentrated there.

Well, how about the coast? In Britain and Gaul, for instance, limitanei units were also stationed there.

I mean, by the notitia dignitatum they were 16 units of comitatus and an not specified number of limitanei; in theory (even if each unit was reduced to less than 1000 men), that should represent something like 10000 soldier, a great number of troops.

To start with, I would put the number a bit lower than that, even if each unit was up to strenght.
Secondly, the ND is not an army list, it's a list of offices, meaning it's not as easy as counting units.
Thirdly, the large number does not mean you'd have an army of that number.

Since the several invaders attacked the peninsula easily, that probably means that the roman troops was probably much lesser. I know that attacking the wisigoths would be risky, but the suevi and alani would be (if those high numbers were true) easy to destroy.

It would not, because of the reasons above. Yes, we know of the officers, but how many would be fighting, and how many would be willing to fight? We see many tribes thrashing through the peninsula, but we don't hear of too many battles. Of course, these are mostly from after the time when the ND was written down, so we can't be sure how many units were ineffect still present in, say, 460 AD.

Constantine III antagonised the locals and the local troops, so he could/did not count on their loyalty. He may have been right about that, since he was the invading usurpoer after all, dragging the relatives of Honorius away to their deaths.

As a result, the fox got in the chicken-pen, and other units were needed to get them out. The Goths were starved into submission, and after that sometimes fought for Rome, sometimes for their own purse. The Vandals could have been destroyed while in Spain, but they were spared. The Suevi had settled in the mountains, and I don't think too many Romans in Spain were really bothered by that at first.

After all, it was noit just a question of drumming up all the forces at hand, create a big army, run down the Germans and rejoice in their demise. What if the battle were lost? Late Roman decision-makers are not known for all too often putting all their eggs in one basket.

(Forgive me the egg-ing on agout chickens and eggs - it's Easter! 8) )

[Robert Vermaat]

Guys, you're forgetting the 'old style' units quoted in Occ. XLII:
Hispaniae:
In provincia Callaecia:
Praefectus legionis septimae geminae, Legione.
Tribunus cohortis secundae Flaviae Pacatianae, Paetaonio.
Tribunus cohortis secundae Gallicae, ad cohortem Gallicam.
Tribunus cohortis Lucensis, Luco.
Tribunus cohortis Celtiberae, Brigantiae, nunc Iuliobriga.
In provincia Tarraconensi:
Tribunus cohortis primae Gallicae, Veleia.
We don't know about their status but they mostly 'smell' to limitanei and at least several of them were stationed in cities (Legio, Lucus and Veleia) with late Roman walls.

I did not forget about them Aitor but thanks for reminding me where they were written down.
I agree with you, they most likely are limitanei units.
The thing is, since the ND is not an army list but a list of offices, the towns and places connected to these offices may not be where the troops are, but merely a headquarters. For instance, we're told that Spanish troops guarded the mountain passes before being removed by Constantine III. I can't believe that they guarded these passes from the cities where their commanders are mentioned - they must have been garrisoned in smaller numbers in either smaller towns or forts (burgi?) a lot closer to the roads and the passes.

[taira1180]

"Since the several invaders attacked the peninsula easily, that probably means that the roman troops was probably much lesser. I know that attacking the wisigoths would be risky, but the suevi and alani would be (if those high numbers were true) easy to destroy."

I think i didnt' express myself correctly. With the coment above i wanted to say that the roman troops were probably very inferior to the numbers in paper, so the that would be the reason to not attack. But you had a good point with the political problems: youy could have roman usurpers seen as the enemy by the locals and barbarian tribes represent the legal autority of Rome.

[aitor iriarte]

Robert,
Another possibility is that those units were indeed garrisoning fortified cities along a main road, a 'via annonaria' (More or less the 'Ab Asturica Burdigalam' of Antonine) securing it for sundry supplies travelling from Hispania thorugh Gaul to the limes.
We've found tantalising remains of early fifth century military presence in Veleia, among them, a pair of typically British belt buckles. [url:3m9g62ls]http://198.144.2.125/Siege/Archaeologica/giletal.pdf[/url]

Aitor

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert,
Another possibility is that those units were indeed garrisoning fortified cities along a main road, a 'via annonaria' (More or less the 'Ab Asturica Burdigalam' of Antonine) securing it for sundry supplies travelling from Hispania thorugh Gaul to the limes.
We've found tantalising remains of early fifth century military presence in Veleia, among them, a pair of typically British belt buckles. [url:3754blw9]http://198.144.2.125/Siege/Archaeologica/giletal.pdf[/url]

oh, I'm not saying that units were never stationed in towns, just that it was not thye usual way for limitanei to garrison towns.

Yes, I know that buckle - my guess is that it belongs to a British soldier of Constantine III.