Rectangle scutum in Caesarian times

[Luca]

I have found something apparently new to me here:
http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_000030.htm

The article (in italian sorry) talks about rectangular scuta in Caesarian times. It is an amazing story.

There are some things that I'm not able to verify by myself, probably here there is someone that can help.

Questions are:

1) the top image portrays a gallo-roman relief about Caesar campaigns. From where it comes? Does this relief is contemporary to Caesar?

2) it is said in the article about "90 degrees angles and linear scuta borders", related to rectangular types, were found at Alesia . I don't know about these findings? Do you?

[Tarbicus]

1) the top image portrays a gallo-roman relief about Caesar campaigns. From where it comes? Does this relief is contemporary to Caesar?

Heh heh Looks like they're wearing Gallic helmets with eyebrows (maybe), and the one at the back on the left is wearing segmentata. At least it might be.

Nice find Luca!

On second thoughts, maybe not a seg.



Some more background to the Battle of the Metaurus and the shields:
[url:2gfst818]http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/shields.htm[/url]

[Luca]

May I suspect that this relief is not contemporary to Caesar? Could be of a later period?

[Tarbicus]

Please do. Here's a reference to Fluvius Camillus introducing the rectangular scutum into the Roman army in the 4th C BC, as well as iron helmets:
[url:3mlc23x3]http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html[/url]

I don't know if it's a rectangular rectangular scutum.

[Luca]

Right. I remember early romans to use more or less rectangulr scuta.

Also on Osprey book (Early Roman Armies (Men-at-Arms 283)) there are some pictures about that.

[Nathan Ross]

I'd say without some more information about that relief - where from? what does it portray? what was the context of its discovery? etc - it can't really be dated or used to prove anything. The helmets are interesting though - they look a bit like the classic 'Trajan's Column' ones with the rim all around the bowl.

The Urso relief below it is interesting too - it's the one I mentioned on the 'padded armour' thread ages ago! The shields could be rectangular, but clearly have spindle bosses in the old republican style - and those republican 'oval' shields are seldom strict ovals anyway. Not sure...

Any chance of translating the principal points from the commentary into English?

- Nathan

[Peroni]

2) it is said in the article about "90 degrees angles and linear scuta borders", related to rectangular types, were found at Alesia . I don't know about these findings? Do you?

Is there anything to state categorically that the shield edging is from a Roman shield and not from a Gallic one??

Regards,

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Luca

Both these reliefs appear in Robinson. First one is from Lyon Page78 plate 200 dated late ist c. BC.

Second one Osuna Page 164 fig 175 dated 1st century B.C. although the example in your article is a Claudio Antonnuci drawing.

Hope this is of some help.

Graham.

[Kate Gilliver]

No idea about that relief, but would like to know.

Furius Camillus is a bit like Marius - they both get credited, mostly by 'modern' historians, with carrying out extensive reforms to the Roman army, like introducing rectangular scutum, iron helmets, manipular system (Camillus), or cohortal system, eagle standard (Marius). The evidence is extremely poor and I think in both cases there's been an impulse to jump on a successful general and credit him with 'reforms'. I agree with Keppie that gradual evolution and development is a more likely explanation for change in the Roman army rather than radical reform.


irrelevant fact of the day: Furio Camillo is one of my favourite stations on Linea A (along with Giulio Agricola)!

kate

[Kate Gilliver]

pulls out Robinson...

Graham, thanks for that; it's much clearer in the book, but have you any idea of the context?

[Tarbicus]

2) it is said in the article about "90 degrees angles and linear scuta borders", related to rectangular types, were found at Alesia . I don't know about these findings? Do you?

Is there anything to state categorically that the shield edging is from a Roman shield and not from a Gallic one??

Regards,

Did Gauls fight in a cohesive shield-wall line formation? That's what the relief seems to represent.

[Graham Sumner]

Kate Gilliver wrote:

Graham, thanks for that; it's much clearer in the book, but have you any idea of the context?

Sorry Kate, no idea. However it also appears in colour in a Lyon guidebook I have. Perhaps if we get the chance to meet later this month I could show you the book.

Graham.

[Tarbicus]

pulls out Robinson...

Graham, thanks for that; it's much clearer in the book, but have you any idea of the context?

Kate, Graham, or anyone who has Robinson, what's the keyboard player (at the back at the left) wearing? Is it the same as the other soldiers?

[Andrew Brozyna]

Another reason I wish Robinson's book was in print! I'd really like to read more about that releif. You know, I was just looking up "The Armor of Imperial Rome," online. I had no idea it was illustrated by Peter Connolly! Now I want it even more. Why, oh why is this not being re-printed? The Roman history public would just eat it up!

Now, if you're interested in Robinson's "Oriental Armour," that book seems to have been newly added to Dover Publications stock for only $17! Could you imagine if Dover offered "The Armor of Imperial Rome" for that price!?

[Chuck Russell]

so why cant someone contact dover and ask them to do it?