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Race in Armour
#1
I had a go at running 200m in armour, yesterday. I found it quite easy to get a good speed and the body armour and shield were no problem. My helmet, however, lacking a chinstrap, wobbled a lot (even though it's a close-fitting Corinthian) and cut my nose. Well, a little gore on the field looks nice...!

I managed it in less than 40 seconds, during which time, the archers got off eight arrows (EACH)!

To study its application to battle, I was persuaded to try it with my dory. It's nearly 9' long. I carried it in a throwing grip, above my shoulder. I thought it would slow me down a lot - at least by ten seconds and possibly more. The time was recorded again and proved to be ONE SECOND longer than my time without the Dory.

Now, I know you're going to start asking about how well this could be done by a group of men in formation, and I would speculate that it could be done VERY effectively by a group of men selected for their speed and well trained. A band of specialist ekdromoi should be able to manage it very efficiently but I can't be sure until we try it Confusedhock: *SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT!Confusedhock: at the Festival.
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#2
They do not have to be specialist ekdromoi Paul.
In the thread "Othismos True nature" I offered my personal experience as to why a group od conscripts with to weeks training can jog into formation while carrying atleast 25 to 35 pounds of equipment.
You just proved that thr hoplites rush in the last stages of the distanace in Marathon or Platea was more than possible.
I take 48 hours to teach 150 men to march in step. In two weeks we can have them joging in large formations. If modern people can do it why not people that move in formation was theit battle tactic could not do it?
Kind regards
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#3
Yes, Stefanos, I remember it well! I just think we ought to see how fast we can charge as a group. I wasn't too keen on that "eight arrows per man in the time it takes me to close" bit!
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#4
Nice finds, Paul.

Although, I thought that the spear would slow you down more than that thanks to the air resistance provided.

Scholars have agreed that it is nearly impossible to maintain the desired formation on the run, without creating gaps. I read somewhere that the Spartans don't charge the enemy in the same manner as let's say the Athenians at Marathon; they walk at a steady cadence to the tones of the flute (someone prompted a discussion on the importance of flutists in phalanx marches - HEY! We need someone to re-enact a flutist, to prove his point!).
[size=75:wtt9v943]Susanne Arvidsson

I have not spent months gathering Hoplites from the four corners of the earth just to let
some Swedish pancake in a purloined panoply lop their lower limbs off!
- Paul Allen, Thespian
[/size]

[Image: partofE448.jpg]
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#5
Re-enactors have established that formation can be maintained very well at a steady trot. I'm interested in how far we can push the pace.

However, it strikes me that a group tasked with removing archers need not approach said task in the same way they would approach smashing infantry. It would depend on how the archers themselves are formed and supported, of course, but it's possible that they could be dealt with by a more open formation than a rim-to-rim phalanx. (We've had people argue that the phalanx itself may not always have been tightly formed).

The archers in our group said they felt they would be strongly inclined to make discretion the better part of valour when confronted by a more heavily armed opponent moving at speed towards them.
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#6
Using Marathon as an example.
Not all Asiatic troops were archers.
Hoplites advanced in open order initially.
Being covered by skirmishers was option. Psiloi were present.
If in the flanks they would still force a number of archers to deal with them.
Rank interpenetration was an option skrmishers retreat through the hoplite ranks. From personal experiance I know that this skill can be mastered by three months training.
If archers were protected by "sparabara" spearmen, the tighter formation would be needed.

Also not all 10000 hoplites would need to advance as one.
LOCHOS and TAXIS are mentioned by the ancient writers.
That means blocks of men beteewn 100 to 600 men moving in parralel.
That type of separation gives flexibility.
Step can be maintaine by singin the "paean" or by trumpet.
600 men jogging, can from time to time execute the "ENA ARISTERO" command-strike left foot on the ground. That helpt maintain tempo.
I know because I have done it.
Kind regards
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#7
Quote:Also not all 10000 hoplites would need to advance as one.

You mean, like the phalanx to the left on the Chigi vase?
[size=75:wtt9v943]Susanne Arvidsson

I have not spent months gathering Hoplites from the four corners of the earth just to let
some Swedish pancake in a purloined panoply lop their lower limbs off!
- Paul Allen, Thespian
[/size]

[Image: partofE448.jpg]
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#8
Quote:
Quote:Also not all 10000 hoplites would need to advance as one.

You mean, like the phalanx to the left on the Chigi vase?

I mean not a 10000 men single block but a group of aligned blocks of men
like the blocksyou see when troops march on parade in the national holydays.
Kind regards
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#9
For sure, at Marathon the Athenian hoplites didn´t run the 8 stadia Herodotus says, I am more inclined to Delbruck explanation as a misunderstanding of the sequence of events in battle by Herodotus.
I recall that according to Xenophon at Cunaxa the Greek hoplites reminded each other not to run too fast pursuing the retreating enemy, in order not to break the formation.
There are several instances in which sources speak of picked young hoplites used in special units to charge enemy light troops, I imagine they will use an open order
To sum up, IMO the main factor in the phalanx speed charge would be to preserve order rather than the weight of armour, except in sustained runs, like fighting light troops.
AKA Inaki
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#10
8 stadia are 1500 meters. No you do not force troops to run this distance if you want to engage hand to hand in the end.
Formed troops can have serious problems with skirmishers (Sfacteria).
So Greeks used combined arms tactics -hevy troops with light troops.
Ekdromoi hoplites used "peltastic" tactics.
Falanx would try to approach as close as possible and then be unleased like a gigantic hammer. When fighting Persians the critical distance would be 400 meters infront of the Persian formation. The hoplites would fast pace or light jog the first 200 meters and charge the rest 200.
Simple hoplitodromy was 200 meters and only Spartans did 2 stadia training.
The issue for the Greek generals was to to get as close as possible andthen hammer their opponents.
Kind regards
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#11
Quote:For sure, at Marathon the Athenian hoplites didn´t run the 8 stadia Herodotus says, I am more inclined to Delbruck explanation as a misunderstanding of the sequence of events in battle by Herodotus.
I recall that according to Xenophon at Cunaxa the Greek hoplites reminded each other not to run too fast pursuing the retreating enemy, in order not to break the formation.
There are several instances in which sources speak of picked young hoplites used in special units to charge enemy light troops, I imagine they will use an open order
To sum up, IMO the main factor in the phalanx speed charge would be to preserve order rather than the weight of armour, except in sustained runs, like fighting light troops.

Hi, Aryaman,

You think along the same lines as I do, it would appear although, if 8 stades is only 1500 metres, then I can't understand why you say "For sure" they didn't run this. I'm with you on the picked young men, bit. I think of them as Ekdromoi. I understand why Stefanos says you could train any band of men to run in formation, but I'm thinking in terms of the ekdromoi forming a first wave, intended to engage the enemy at the earliest possible moment and allowing the other Hoplites to come to contact at a steadier pace.
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#12
Quote:The hoplites would fast pace or light jog the first 200 meters and charge the rest 200.
Simple hoplitodromy was 200 meters and only Spartans did 2 stadia training.
The issue for the Greek generals was to to get as close as possible andthen hammer their opponents.
Kind regards

These details are very interesting, Stefanos,
Efkharisto.
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#13
The only problem I see with the phalanx charge is that with little training and bad condition the hoplites would be exhausted as they reached the enemy line...
[size=75:wtt9v943]Susanne Arvidsson

I have not spent months gathering Hoplites from the four corners of the earth just to let
some Swedish pancake in a purloined panoply lop their lower limbs off!
- Paul Allen, Thespian
[/size]

[Image: partofE448.jpg]
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#14
Thanks Paul.
Personaly I belive that in Marathon psiloi engaged first front and flank.
Hoplites advanced in open order blocks. At 500 meters psiloi retreated through the hoplite lines while hoplites advaced to clear and reach the critical distance before charging full speed. Trumpet signs could aid to this
Many modern armies volonteer and consrcript have demostration formations that exchange ranks quickly. I belive this tactic was not impossible to the ancients.

Susane, ancient middle class boys (hoplite class that is) went to school and spent a lot of time in palestra-gymnasion from 10 to 18 years.
What drill most conscripts do for 6 months they did for 6 years.
Spartans were conscripted from 7 to 60 (53 years military service!!) but that an exception.
Still hoplites were regular troops and well drilled in the major city states.
Kind regards
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#15
Yes, but those aged 20 and above tended to their crops during the harvest season, no time to work out then (Sparta is an exception, of course)?
[size=75:wtt9v943]Susanne Arvidsson

I have not spent months gathering Hoplites from the four corners of the earth just to let
some Swedish pancake in a purloined panoply lop their lower limbs off!
- Paul Allen, Thespian
[/size]

[Image: partofE448.jpg]
Reply


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