Advice needed about water flask

[Tarbicus]

What about those ones?:
http://geocities.com/ivarmaelstrom/pourse.jpg

They're shoulder bags, not for the belt.

Nice to see though, thanks.

[Caballo]

IIRC, a belt purse / pouch (one with a "concertina" folding closure with drawstring holes, one with a flap) and an arm purse (all of leather) were found at Vindolanda.

Cheers

Caballo

[Tarbicus]

Like this one with the edging (I seem to recall)?

[url:12q1dwwh]http://www.frisius-f.de/Shopartikel/_0042.jpg[/url]

[Carlton Bach]

The beltpouches I've seen all cover part of the belt. Not something I'd want to do is my belt were a status symbol and I already paid a lot of money to have it fitteed with lovely metal plates. Also, we have evidence for shoulder bags, bags carried in the hand, drawstring pouches suspended from the belt, and items tucked into the belt. The one thing we don't have until IIRC the fourth century is the kind of beltpouch that is so popular today.

BTW, twelfth century reenactment suffers from a similar problem. Beltpouches are predominantly femal attire, but most of the men wear one because it's so practical.

[Carlton Bach]

I think the Egyptian hard (looks it anyway, it's certainly not a waterskin and the 'handle' does a pretty good job of staying upright by itself) leather flask above pretty much says "Yes, they existed even before Roman times!" As the Romans took Egypt, and plenty of evidence comes from Egypt, I feel justified in using one of those hardened leather flasks.

I think that Egyptian item is ceramic. At least I don't see how you could make the shape of the 'neck' work in leather. It says 'Imitation Leather Flask' - perhaps a ceramic item imitating the shape of a leather waterskin?? If you imagine a shoulder through the 'strap' it makes sense.

[Tarbicus]

Damn. Then again, if it's a ceramic representation then it could be either soft skin or hardened leather?

I'm not having much luck with this water flask. Problem is no ceramic Roman canteens have been found in Britain whereas they have everywhere else, which could be seen as a very odd absence of evidence. They must have used something, but Saddler's Den's own experiments have shown that waterskins worn against armour are useless.

Does the grass covering on the ceramic canteen help protect it from serious knocks and drops? Perhaps one of my problems with them is that the net bag just doesn't look protective enough, but it has to be said the actual find's woven grass covering looks far more substantial and safer.


Just a note to Julia - I'm not having a go at your work, it's awesome.

And a word of warning about the Amica Library link - I tried to subscribe to find out more, but the card was rejected even though it's fine. I checked with the card provider and it had been charged £1 for each attempt. I'm waiting to see what Amicus Library has to say.

[Martin Moser]

They must have used something, but Saddler's Den's own experiments have shown that waterskins worn against armour are useless.

Don't know a thing about those experiments, but personally I carried a softskin waterskin over my segmentata every day (okay, minus 1 day break) for 2 weeks and 250-300km without any problem at all. And I don't see where there should be problems, actually, normally there are no pointed bits on your armor/body and if you do manage to pierce it with your pilum you probably deserve the results :-) )

[Tarbicus]

Okay, I've cracked. You've all worn me down to dust :wink: Waterskin it'll be. :roll:

[size=75:3rjdf5p8]But I still can't believe hardened leather canteens didn't exist... :twisted: [/size]

[Tarbicus]

Or maybe not. :roll:

According to this book which is available online, Hyksos and Israelite Cities, by W. M. Fliders Petrie, a description is given of Tahutmas age ceramic depictions of leather items being buried with corpses at the Hyksos Cemetery. The stitching is visible on the ceramic depictions.

My understanding of water skins of this age is that they were complete bladders without stitching, the skin being taken off the animal in one piece and tied off at the extremeties. There's also mention of pottery depicting Cypriote type leather bottles in the cemetery of Goshen. Further into the book there is also mention of a hitherto unknown type of thick heavy red pots which are also variations of the Cypriote leather bottle type.

Some were one-eared, others had two ears, and others three. They are very thick and clumsy, but have a beautifully finished surface. The average height was six and a half inches.

Hmmmm....

[Caballo]

"My understanding of water skins of this age is that they were complete bladders without stitching, the skin being taken off the animal in one piece and tied off at the extremeties. "

Jim, I'm very happy for you to take the lead in drinking water from an authentically made cow's bladder canteen....... hock:

Cheers

Caballo

[Tarbicus]

I'm obsessing about this, you're right.

Then, I go and find this:
[url:2fe81x6i]http://www.chipstone.org/publications/CIA/2001/Straube/2001StraubeText.html[/url], European Ceramics in the New World.

[i]Martincamp flasks are identifiable as the “bottles of earth covered with wickerâ€

[Caballo]

"I'm obsessing about this, you're right. "
Yes, but isn't obsessing about it, and arguing through the most likely scenario half the fun? Mrs Caballo certainly has called it an obsession many times!

Cheers

Caballo

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

there have, however, been small ceramic bottles found in britain. who is to say that some soldier wouldnt have carried one of these in a net bag? (I admit, a leap of faith as well)

also, I solve the problem of a pouch with a small drwstring pouch to carry in my hand, wrap around my wrist, or tie to my baldric or other strap. I only keep 2 asses and a sestertius in it, anything more than that I can keep stored, wrapped up, and hidden in my sarcina.

[Peroni]

Jim,

have you considered the other option.. Gourds?

I saw some lovely gourds made into drinking vessels at a reenactors fayre recently. I cannot remember the trader's name, but it may be worth a search.

regards,

[Tarbicus]

Cheers Adrian,

I have thought of them, and read somewhere that they were certainly available from Africa and the Med. Seeds are available to buy, but it's a case of making sure they are Old World seeds, not New World. There are some fantastic shapes as well