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What were the Eunuchs exactly!?
#16
Quote:
Nathan Ross post=344647 Wrote:The next page mentions a law of Justinian claiming that only three out of a sample ninety people castrated survive the operation! So not as neat as all that then... :eek:
This is the law in question:
http://webu2.upmf-grenoble.fr/DroitRomai..._Scott.htm

Maybe this was an operation where all the genitals were removed? That would explain the high death rate.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#17
I'm dubious about that statistic. Slaves were valuable assets. Would their owners really have them undergo an operation where 87 out of 90 died?

The law is to stop the act of castration and they try to justify it as appearing both pious and humane. I'm thinking these stat is either cherry-picked or inflated somehow.
David J. Cord
www.davidcord.com
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#18
Quote:Maybe this was an operation where all the genitals were removed? That would explain the high death rate.
The law makes it clear that these were illegal operations and, therefore, unlikely to have been performed under medical supervision or under particularly hygienic conditions. Apart from the complications of the operation itself, I would imagine that the principal cause of death was septicaemia
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#19
You're right to pick up on inherent illegality being a factor here. Many such slaves would have arrived "with white feet" as the Romans said: from outside the Imperium. Probably from the East.
Jass
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#20
Quote:"with white feet"... from outside the Imperium. Probably from the East.

Interesting expression - what does it mean? I recall something about slaves having chalk on their feet but beyond that...

Most eunuchs did indeed come from outside the empire though, meaning that all the imperial legislation from Domitian onwards probably had no effect as it only related to 'creating' eunuchs, not trading them or possessing them as slaves.

Abasgia, on the eastern shore of the Black Sea, was apparently a top eununchising place in later centuries. Since the value of a eunuch was presumably much greater than the value of a standard slave boy, we might imagine that a considerable attrition rate in the, erm, medical procedures would be considered economically viable. A grisly thought.
Nathan Ross
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#21
Quote:
Lyceum post=344742 Wrote:"with white feet"... from outside the Imperium. Probably from the East.

Interesting expression - what does it mean? I recall something about slaves having chalk on their feet but beyond that...

Most eunuchs did indeed come from outside the empire though, meaning that all the imperial legislation from Domitian onwards probably had no effect as it only related to 'creating' eunuchs, not trading them or possessing them as slaves.

Abasgia, on the eastern shore of the Black Sea, was apparently a top eununchising place in later centuries. Since the value of a eunuch was presumably much greater than the value of a standard slave boy, we might imagine that a considerable attrition rate in the, erm, medical procedures would be considered economically viable. A grisly thought.

Good, yes, that's the origin of the saying "cum pedibus albis", it most likely denotes foreign origin and the use of gypsum might have religious origins. Quite an interesting differentiating mark! we also have war captives sold sub hastae or with a special corona and those with a pilleus which represented a lack of guarantee.

But yeah I figured it would be apt since most of these would be from outside the Imperium. I wanted to say Abasgia but honestly couldn't remember the correct name and kept coming up with Abagasia, which sounded...odd.

Someone has mentioned priestly castration, its worth mentioning that attitudes towards such varied and often they weren't so prejudiced against, if I remember correctly.

However, this is all dim memory for me. :grin: I've only ever been tangentially acquainted with this slavery stuff.
Jass
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#22
Quote: . . . that's the origin of the saying "cum pedibus albis", it most likely denotes foreign origin . . .
I wonder if this is in any way analogous to the name of the ancient English system of Courts of Piepowder, which administered justice at fairs and markets. The name is usually explained as referring to the 'dusty feet' (pieds poudrés in French) of those who had travelled to the location. A similar explanation might relate to the ‘white (or dusty) feet’ of those who had travelled from outside the Empire.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#23
The high mortality rate quoted would be similar to the deathrate quoted of illegal abbortions. It's main use would be to act as a deterent, painting a black picture of an undesirable act. Infection could and can be avoided by hygienic conditions, which where well understood by the practicions of medicine. Even though there were no antibiotics, sterilising instruments and desinfecting wounds was known and common practice. Deep surgery in the abdomen was not conducted, but removing the testi was a known procedure and in most respects rather superficial.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#24
Quote: that's the origin of the saying "cum pedibus albis", it most likely denotes foreign origin

Found it. The reference is Pliny, Natural History 35.38:

"...the most inferior kind of chalk; which was used by the ancients... for marking the feet of slaves on sale, that were brought from beyond sea..."

Pliny goes on to say that some of these slaves attained high rank, and were "sent back in state to the very place from which they originally came, with their feet whitened with the slave-dealer's chalk!"
Nathan Ross
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#25
So was castration performed on slaves only in early to mid empire? In the Han court of emperor Wu(141-87BC) Sima Qian, who wrote "Records of the Grand Historian" & has been likened to Herodotus as the first historian of Ancient China, refers to castration in the Han era as “Palace Punishment" for court officials who found disfavour with the Emperor. He himself found out first hand this punishment when he alone at the Han court spoke up in the defence of an army commander who was defeated & captured by Xiong nu & seemingly disgraced Emperor Wu by not dying in battle. He was jailed for 3 years & then given the choice of death or castration & he chose castration because he wanted to complete work of his father, who was the previous Court Astrologer & who died before completing his massive manuscript & thus not shame his ancestors. He described his own castration as the punishment of rottenness & says "I too went into the silkworm chamber, where castration is performed." He says that associating with a eunuch in Han China was improper & disgraceful & then concludes "How can I, something left over from the knife & saw, be worthy to recommend to the emperor the finest & most worthy men for his service?" In Han times if you chose castration to avoid death you could commute your sentence by payment of a fine but as Sima Qian's family were poor he chose castration.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#26
Hi, folks,
I'm the Author of that "Heterosexualized Eunuch" paper from Academia.edu and I'm glad it's been helpful! Thanks especially to Epictetus for the Lucian reference, which will be going into the final journal article for sure. I'll be lurking a bit to see what surfaces, but it's great to see people interested in the experiences and lives of ancient eunuchs. It really is a big gap in our understanding of pre-Byzantine antiquity that needs serious reconsideration.

Tougher's "Eunuchs of Light" is worth a look for those of you with good library access (http://www.classicalpressofwales.co.uk/eunuchs.htm), as is Mathew Kuefler, “The Manly Eunuch: Masculinity, Gender Ambiguity, and Christian Ideology in Late Antiquity,” http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book...20524.html.

I've also attached "Vespasian and the Slave Trade" which deals with the economic aspects of eunuchs in the imperial period quite nicely, IMHO. But so far as I know, I'm the only person currently looking at imperial Roman eunuchs from a primarily medical point of view.

All best! Molly Jones-Lewis


Attached Files
.pdf   VespasianandtheSlaveTrade.pdf (Size: 1.07 MB / Downloads: 0)
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