The Persians were outnumbered by the army of Alexander

[Aryaman2]

This was the provocative conclusion of Delbruck in his study of the battle of Issos. His basic premise is, of course, all reports of Persian numbers are given by the enemy, so they are greatly exagerated. Besides that he further ellaborated the point and added some other arguments
1) The Persian army moved into the mountains of Cillicia with aproximately the same speed that the Macedonian army, so it should not be that large
2) The plain of Issos is at least 5 Kms wide, however the Persians did not wait for the Macedonians in the plain, instead they moved forward seeking the natural defense of the Pinaros river, that is not logical for an army that greatly outnumber the enemy, especially in cavalry.
I am reading nor Donald Engels work on Alexander logistics, and looking into his figures I think they add further arguments for the small size of the Persian army
a) The Persians, unlike the Macedonians, carried a very large baggage train, so that there was less possibilities to feed soldiers for long marches
b) The Persian army has a strong cavalry component that added heavily to the logistic burden
So, it could be very possible that Darius was in fact outnumbered. Delbruck made a general point on the difference between Persian and Greek armies, Persian armies were "feudal" in nature, based on noblemen servint the king with his horsemen retinues. Greek armies were civic levies, infantry armies of conscripts, so by their own nature they had to be more numerous. He made the historical comparison with the Battle of Granson, in which thearmy of Burgundy, composed of knights, mercenary longbowmen and some early field artillery (compared to the Persians) fought the Swiss phalanx of pikemen. According to the Swiss chronicle Bullinger the Swiss army was heavily outnumbered, the Burgundians being 120.000 strong, and this was held true for centuries as Bullinger relied on eyewitness accounts. However in the XIX century payrolls of the Burgundian army were made available to historical research, showing that the Burgundian army was in fact just 4.000 strong, and heavily outnumebered by the Swiss.
So, by the logic of narrative, the logic of logistics and the logic of the nature of the Persian army we have to admit that here we have another of those historical myths of Western heroes defeating countless hordes of orientals.
Any thoughts?

[Jona Lendering]

I did not read Delbrück, but in my own book on Alexander, I have reached more or less the same conclusion: not all Persian could be deployed.

Engels is, in my view, excellent, although his account contains a crazy mistake on page 52, where he says that the Pillar of Jonah is a mile high. I'd say about one hundred meters; the Pillar of Jonah is on this picture, immediately behind the little mosque.
[url:259ipgl2]http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/issus/pillar_of_jonah.JPG[/url]
More info on the battlefield at [url:259ipgl2]http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/issus/issus.html[/url].

[Arthes]

Greetings,
I think it was Stephen Pressfield who commented that a fair amount of the Persian army there were unskilled/conscripted men...(the book has disappeared, as is usual when I try to look for something) and not regular warriors....
and of course, as you mentioned, Aryaman, where Darius went, there was his family, the Harem, servants and their servants, eunachs, soothsayers, slaves and all the paraphanalia of a royal holiday trip....throne, bed and the kitchen sink....literally.... :roll:
It was probably a case of the Macedonians thinking that the Persian army was huge until they got into the midst of them.... :lol:
Didn't Alexander hold a party for 300, in Darius's tent alone.....or was that a quarter of Darius's tent....?
I must admit it must have been quite a sight to see.....
'where have you been all week dear?'
'waiting to cross the road, you know how it is when Darius goes away...'
regards
Arthes

[Jona Lendering]

According to Arrian and others, the core of the Persian army consisted of well-trained Greek mercenaries, many of whom had belonged to the army of Memnon. Other soldiers had earned their spurs during Darius' struggle for power (not mentioned in the Greek sources but implied in the cuneiform texts). I'm not convinced that the Persian army at Issus was unskilled. Gaugamela is another matter.

[hoplite14gr]

I think that Alexander did everything he could to unbalance the foe and beat him piece meal. Yes Darios had a sizeble army. The trick is to keep him off balance and Alex did exactly that. He kept the upper hand in maneuvering and "forced" his terms in battle.
Kind regards

[Jona Lendering]

This may be a matter of definition, but personally, I would not say that Alexander forced Darius to fight on Macedonian terms. The two armies more or less stumbled across each other; the Macedonians believed the Persians were in the east, and were surprised to learn that Darius was in their rear; Darius believed that the Macedonians were fleeing to the southeast and was surprised to learn from peasants ("scared to death", according to QCR) that the Macedonians were actually marching towards him.

At this point, somewhere at noon on the 5th or 6th of November (date suggested in Astronomical Diaries; not in Greek sources, but implied by continued fighting after moonrise), Darius made his decisions. He could retreat to the plain north of Issus, which he did not - we do not know why. Instead, he ordered his men to take positions along the Pinarus, a little brook. He ordered his cavalry to move south of the brook, to defend his men while they were fortifying their positions. Arrian mentions a barricade that had been erected.

As I see it, it was Darius who decided to fight at the Pinarus, and it was Darius who choose to make it a defensive battle. As it turned out, it was the wrong decision; nevertheless, the Persians came very, very close to victory.

[Arthes]

Greetings Jona,

I'm not convinced that the Persian army at Issus was unskilled. Gaugamela is another matter.

The reference I had read was regarding the Battle of the Granicus...where 60,000 local levy conscripts are referred to as probably being farmers, labourers etc...'who will bolt at the first scraped knee'
I have just got to the Pillar of Jonah chapter....lol
regards
Arthes

[Jona Lendering]

Granicus was indeed, probably, a battle against local levies. On the other hand, there were Greek mercenaries too. But they appear to have been a minority.

[hoplite14gr]

I will agree with Jona on Granikus.
After Granikus the loyalty of scatered Greek contignents in the Persian army would be aquestion-especially after the Ionian city states (troop source) surrenderd to Alexander.
Kind regards

[Aryaman2]

IMO it is very important the issue of numbers, because it shade a completely different light on Alexander campaign. The struggle between Persians and Macedonians becomes that of a "feudal" army with a limited number of warriors against a large conscript army with a numerous infantry. The acomplishment of Alexander is then rather than the charismatic warrior leading a small army against the asiatic hordes, the master of logistics, able to lead a numerous army deep into enemy territory in lightning marches with a minimal baggage train. According to Engels half the Persian army was the train baggage, while the only infantry in Issos seems to be that of Greek mercenaries and the Cardaces, and they could be but a few thousands. Then the cavalry as the main weapon. In total, the fighting force could be well under 20.000 (Delbruck suggested 12.000) against more than 30.000 Macedonians. That makes clear why Darius sought a defensive battle.

[Aryaman2]

An additional question is the frontage of a cavalry army. The Persian cavalry fought in open order, so that a single cavalryman front would be easily that of 4 Hoplites. Since cavalry deployed only 3 deep, while the Macedonian phalanx deployed 16 deep, a unit of cavalry just 1.000 strong would have the frontage of 16.000 hoplites. I recall then Xenophon account of the battle between Cyrus and Artaxerxes. IIRC about 12.000 Greeks held the left flank, with the river in the extreme left. He says that in Cyrus army were another 100.000 Barbarians, however when it comes to battle, he only talks about the 600 cavalrymen fighting under Cyrus command in the right flank. He I think means they were the only fighting, however if you take their frontage into account those 600 had a frontage almost as wide as the 12.000 Greek (deployed 12 deep), so they could well be th entire right flank of Cyrus. With all that what I mean is that, should Persian armies being only half as massive as anccient sources say, they could easily outflank the Greeks, however both at Grannicus and Issos it is the Persians who seek a defensive position behind a river to avoid being flanked.