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Scutum cover
#1
I am making a leather cover for my scutum, I make the "body" of the cover including the "hat" for the umbo but I didn´t found a system of a traps and belts to transport the scutum in the back. Can somebody give me a historical reference of the transport of the scutum?
Titus Amatius Paulus
commilito legionis VIIII Hispaniae
et Septimanorum seniorum
Aka: Pablo Amado
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#2
Have you tried Florentius' website?
[url:1c5aq96b]http://www.florentius.com[/url]

He has wrote a nice article on scutum carriage, with a lot of pics.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#3
Thanks.

I thinked in it, but I prefer a fixed carriage system (joined with the cover)

Before I used a fixed system similar to Florentius´s one but the scutum vibrate too much when I am walking.

www.florentius.com/scutumcarriage.htm
Titus Amatius Paulus
commilito legionis VIIII Hispaniae
et Septimanorum seniorum
Aka: Pablo Amado
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#4
"Die Legionen des Augustus" The Florentius harness is based upon Junkelmann's and Junkelmann successfully used it in his march across the alps.

I do not think that there is any evidence for a harness system incorporated with the cover. Besides, I do not think that it would work. As the covers were made from thin goat leather, such a system would likely quickly break.
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
Conscribe te militem in legionibus, vide mundum, inveni terras externas, cognosce miros peregrinos, eviscera eos.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiotricesima.org">http://www.legiotricesima.org
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#5
Not to mention the threat of being poked with something pointy if the barbarians attack your column while you have a big scutum strapped to your body :lol: I've never understood that whole harness thing...
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
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#6
Ummm.... I will follow your counsils an try to make the Junkelmann´s and Florentius system. I will post my results soon
Titus Amatius Paulus
commilito legionis VIIII Hispaniae
et Septimanorum seniorum
Aka: Pablo Amado
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#7
Whats the evidence that there was a harness? I know there may have been a sling similar to medieval guige (sp), but nothing like a harness to carry it on your back.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#8
of a relief showing a legionaire carrying his scutum, and as I recall, he has his left hand holding a carrying strap for it. Also on Trajan's column some legionaires appear to have scuta about their backs. All other evidence is experimental.
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
Conscribe te militem in legionibus, vide mundum, inveni terras externas, cognosce miros peregrinos, eviscera eos.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiotricesima.org">http://www.legiotricesima.org
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#9
Sure, a strap makes sense, but that harness that ties the scutum to one's body seems excessively restrictive for an ancient soldier anywhere but in the most secured of places. Granted Junkelmann and others who have experimented with these harnesses likely discovered that a simple strap wasn't sufficient on long marches or over difficult terrain, and that something more significant was necessary.
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
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#10
Actually, the depictions of soldiers with slung scuta tend to show them not so much on the back but curving around the left shoulder.

My harness is similar to Florentius's and he and I have traded one or two bits of experience with each other to achieve our present harnesses.

I agree with Junkelmann's thought that a chest strap is necessary to stabalise the shield. I find it works best when it crosses the chest and joins the main strap near the shoulder. The point about being unable to get to one's shield in a hurry if it was rigged for the march occurred to me too and therefore I designed my harness with a pair of straps and buckles which pass around the shield handle and can be undone in a couple of seconds, meaning that you may still be wearing your harness but your shield is no longer attached to it and can be moved as necessary. The position on the left shoulder also allows the shield handle to be released without having to pull the shield into position first.

Pablo,

You should be able to overcome the problem of your shield vibrating by hitching it higher up. The top edge of your scutum should be a little way above the level of your shoulder. You will also find that in this position it does not knock against your legs so much when you march. This can be sinificant, as a light tapping of the shield against your legs over several hours' marching tends to develop into painful bruises which are agrevated by every further tap of the shield against them.

I will post up some pictures of mine tomorrow.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#11
Here is one of the very few images of a legionary kitted out in marching order, from one of the column bases presumed to have came from the praetorium at Mainz. As you can see, the shield curves around his left shoulder. I am also tempted to wonder whether a horizontal line running up towards his left shoulder may be intended to represent a chest strap. If this is what it is it would be close to the position I found most comfortable on my reconstruction.

[Image: Mainzbase3imbase.jpg]
Courtesy of Romanarmy.com imagebase

Here is a picture of me with my shield slung on my harness. I have made some modifications to the harness since this was taken but the appearance and operation of the harness is still exactly the same. I have pushed my shield back to show the harness more clearly. Normally the shield would hang further around my shoulder. The dark strap running horizontally across my chest is my sword baldric rather than part of the harness.

[Image: Harness3.jpg]

Here is the harness laid out inside the shield. Ignore the strap coming off at the top right - it is simply extra length of the main strap (which I have now shortened). I have also now shortened the dark strap of the back/chest section of the harness. You can see the two straps of the main section of the harness passing around the shield handle, where you should be able to see two buckles, which are quickly and easily released.

[Image: Harness1.jpg]

Florentius has also now used this idea but connects the straps and buckles to his main straps with metal rings, whereas mine are in one with the main straps. He has said that he finds the straps move about somewhat on the handle with this arrangement. I find that mine sits securely and the straps do not move. I suspect his problem could be with play in the connecting rings he has used.

In the link below you can see me from behind here with my shield slung on the march. You can see how the top edge is roughly level with my ears. This position was very comfortable and the shield hardly moved at all. Sorry there is no shield cover visible. Since being given a good deal of information on shield covers (which unfortunately I have had to agree not to pass on) I have had to revise my first attempt at a shield cover quite radically and it remains high on my list of projects urgently needing completion.

http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/h ... PG_jpg.htm

I hope this helps a little.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#12
It would be great if someone made a easy to understand how-to to make a carying harness for the scutum. Something that clearly lists the amount of straps and buckles , aproximate lenght etc.
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#13
Jef,
The problem is that we simply don't know what a genuine Roman carrying harness looked like. We do have one or two images of soldiers carrying shields attached to a vertical strap. Here is one of them: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/C ... zzouli.jpg and here is another: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/C ... cordus.jpg
From practical experimentation however, we can surmise that something more like a harness would be required for long distance marches.

Junkelmann experimented with a number of different harness designs, and developed the well known reconstruction which bears his name. In all probability most reconstuctions since then have taken mush of their inspiration from this model.

When eighteen members of my group marched Hadrian's wall in August of 2004 each of us made a harness and in consequece fourteen different scutum carriage arrangements were used, as well as two different arrangements for clippeii. Some designs worked better than others. Unfortunately several people have yet to pass on the details of their designs, along with reports of their experiences with them.

Unfortunately we do not have any particularly good pictures at this stage of harnesses from our march as either we were marching, or we were having our hourly rest, during which time most of us removed our shields and in most cases our harnesses. Very few photographs were taken (by any members of the group at any rate) whilst we were marching. Two are partially visible here: http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/h ... PG_jpg.htm
Two are visible here, again having datached their shields having stopped. The soldier with the red sword scabbard (also seen in the previous photo) has copied Junkelmann's exact harness design: http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/h ... lt_jpg.htm
A soldier with his shield still slung (although his harness is covered by his shield) is pictured here: http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/h ... lt_jpg.htm
You could also try looking at this thread, where Florentius and I exchanged a number of ideas: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 5e00b34d39
This thread could also be useful. This time Neuraleanus and Flavius Promotus featured heavily, along with Florentius and yours truly: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 81&start=0

For what it's worth, my harness has four straps (torso strap in two parts which buckle together and main strap in two parts which buckle together) and four buckles (one for the main straps, one for the torso straps and two at the shield handle to allow the shield to be easily released).
When I designed it I set four criteria, all of which is had to fulfill. Firstly, it had to be able to support the shield comfortably over long distances. Secondly, it had to have some sort of quick release mechanism to allow it to be removed quickly from the harness and employed in an emergency. Thirdly, I had to be able to don the harness and bring the shield into the correct position unaided. Fourthly, it had to be durable.

I hope all this helps a little.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#14
Quote:The problem is that we simply don't know what a genuine Roman carrying harness looked like.

You are right of course.

Quote:From practical experimentation however, we can surmise that something more like a harness would be required for long distance marches.

I am inclined to believe a harness was used but I also wonder if it could be possible to train to carry the shield by a shoulder strap only (Legionaries on campaign probably were used to cope with very though circumstances and might have been fit enough to carry a shield without a harness).

Quote:Unfortunately several people have yet to pass on the details of their designs, along with reports of their experiences with them.

Yes, this is what I meant, it would be very interesting to hear how different designs work, to learn from other people's experience. This way we could come closer to what is the simplest and best solution (this would not automaticaly be what the Romans used however as they made some things more complicated than neccesary without (for us) apparent practical reason.

Quote:Unfortunately we do not have any particularly good pictures at this stage of harnesses from our march

Perhaps a compilation of simple drawings could be made? This way it would be much easier to explain and show how each harness is constructed. It is very difficult to explain those things with words only.

Thanks for the advice and links!

Kind regards,
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#15
Jef,

When I get all of the drawings and descriptions in from everybody, I will write it up as an article, which will probably also include references to designs used by other groups and their experiences with them. I will them see to it that this article appears on our websit: www.romanarmy.net .

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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