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Plate Manica
#31
I am very interested also in seeing 'exact' evidence (though supposition is always fun) for so called extant
gladiatorial manicas. I come from a "school" of gladiatorial fabricators that have the lames running downwards and also completely enclose the arm. Any gladius that ever penetrated the sleeve usually found itself "locked" and ripped out of its owners hand.

Admitably those manicas were made out of quite thick plate but it allowed us to do some serious weapons placement..............

having said that I have to admit that leather ones are good for speed and that if you dont use cloth ones how else are you going to achieve "the gladiators rags" look????

And half arm enclosed manicas??For sure they are cheaper and easier to produce....

Regardz
miles minimus
Richard R
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#32
Quote:My leather manica has the plates facing upward, for reasons mentioned before...a sword thrust can more easily be parried when sliding in that direction. Generally speaking, the sword/weapon arm will be toward the opponent, and therefore, the upward facing plates will help direct the attacking blade away.

I've read, but not seen certain examples, that gladiators used BOTH directions of plates, depending on what type of gladiator they were facing. I'm sure it's for the reason of letting the opponent's attacks slide off. If coming mostly from above, then downward facing is better, if towards the body, then upward would work better.

I found this debate very interesting, and I think you have a point here.
Wasnt the legionary plate manica introduced during the dacian wars to stop the significant injuries recieved from the dacian falx?
And wasnt the leginary helmet reinforced on its top during the same period?
I think therefore the leginary fighting outside forces had to defend mostly against downward cuts and chops and might have therefore favoured the downward overlap.
Gladiators in contrast fought mostly with stabbing attacks, like the roman legionary so an upward overlap must have made more sense in that regard
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#33
Quote:Wasnt the legionary plate manica introduced during the dacian wars to stop the significant injuries recieved from the dacian falx?
And wasnt the leginary helmet reinforced on its top during the same period?
I think therefore the leginary fighting outside forces had to defend mostly against downward cuts and chops and might have therefore favoured the downward overlap.
Manica have been found outside Dacia, in Britain. A well made falx would at least cause serious trauma beneath the armour, especially compression damage to the neck from a severe head blow (can't remember my source - it's based on tests done). Would a falx's downward stroke be more inclined to return back, or would it still be going forwards on contact? If it's purely down I don't see how upwards or downwards overlap would particularly make much difference, but the manica would be still be good for other weapons. At least an upward overlap would take a weapon more towards armour and not the more vulnerable sword hand.

Dacia aside, one of the greatest threats to a legionary's arm would be from a spear, in which case the blow would surely be coming in from the front anyway. In fact, I'm sure you could probably still include Dacia in that.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#34
You are right of course, I completly disregarded the spear as one of the most common infantry weapons encountered... :oops:
I suppose that an upward overlap would be more inclined to catch a downward stroke on the arm inside the gaps.
And as many of romes enemys favored slashing as opposed to stabbing, a hit would glance of a downward overlap better, while an upward is better at deflecting stabing attacks from the front (which are the norm in galdiatorial combat)
So the question would be, against which weapon was the manica developed?
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#35
Quote:So the question would be, against which weapon was the manica developed?

IMHO all of 'em- especially edged weapons that could potentially sever the wrist/ arm when the sword arm is stretched out beyond the shield.

The manica has a long history going back to Greek times (eg the Ai Khanum finds and the depiction on the Pergamun relief). The Roman army simply picked this up at some point in the first century- possibly following experience of the crupellarius in Sacrovir's revolt of AD 21.

There should be an article by me on the manica, its history, and its use posted shortly on the RMRS Legio XIIII GMV website, which might be useful?

Happy to email a copy if people PM me their email address.

Cheers

Caballo
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