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Swords of Caesar
#1
Just a quick question to all of the members of RAT: If I were looking for an accurate replica of a gladius used during the Civil War, by some of Caesar's veteran legions, what would it look like? I've seen the many different versions of the gladius, but for this time period, which version? I've heard some say the Mainz style, even the Pompeii, but I'm wondering how long would the blade be? Would the guard be oval or round? Would the blade be straight, with a small taper, or wasp-waisted? Naturally, any combination of these features could lead to a fulham gladius, mainz, etc. Any suggestions of a good site to where I can view an accurate replica, or if there is a decent book dedicated to the many different swords of the Roman army -- even better!

I know a few good arms sites, such as albion armory, swords of valor, and swords of honor, but I'm sure there is more out there.

Thanks!
Gaius Tertius Severus "Terti" / Trey Starnes

"ESSE QUAM VIDERE"
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#2
If you can get hold of a copy of JRMES 8

http://www.armatura.connectfree.co.uk/jrmes/vol08.htm

There is a drawing of a blade from (Osuna ?) which is Ceasarian in date.

It is dated at the tail end if the Hispaniensis and is waisted like a Mainz but a few centimeters longer and IIRC slimmer.

Conal
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#3
try this http://www.phoenixmetalcreations.com/roman_swords.html
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#4
Thanks Conal,

I'll be sure to check out both websites and look at the pictures. Luckily, my university has an online database of old periodicals, so hopefully I can get a copy of that specific issue. Thanks for the suggestion!
Gaius Tertius Severus "Terti" / Trey Starnes

"ESSE QUAM VIDERE"
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#5
Ave!

The typical sword of Caesar's time was most likely the gladius hispaniensis, such as mine:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/Smihel1.jpg

The blades run 24 to 27 inches long by about 2" wide, and can be waisted or more straight-edged, with a long point. My hilt is shown here:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/hispan1.jpg

It's taken from the Altar of Ahenobarbus, but the belt parts are early (from Numantia). There just aren't any suriving hilts from that era, so far, so all we have are a few vague sculptures. At some point during the mid- to late-first century BC comes the change of hanging the scabbard vertically rather than at an angle, but not sure if that's during Caesar's life or not.

One thing about hispaniensis blades is that the shoulders are always sloped or rounded, not straight like on later swords. But since the hilts don't survive, it's very hard to figure out what they looked like. There doesn't seem to have been a brass guard plate involved, at least, since that should survive in some cases. Phoenix Metal Creations is using hilts from about 100 years too late, really. (And I'm not sure those blade profiles are quite right...)

It's also possible that the Mainz gladius was in use, but it may be a tad early for that. It's a generally accepted theory, though, and handy since there is a commercially-made cheap Mainz gladius (Deepeeka) while a hispaniensis would have to be custom-made.

The Fulham, well, we know less about it now than we used to! It was always thought to be a transition form between Mainz and Pompeii, but it looks to me to be more closely related to the hispaniensis--it's just shorter. It could actually be a transition between the hispaniensis and the Mainz, or it could simply be its own development from the former. Or it could even be just a narrower form of the Mainz!

The Pompeii gladius is right out for Caesar's day. It doesn't show up until the first century AD.

That help? Vale,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#6
Quote:Thanks Conal,
I'll be sure to check out both websites and look at the pictures. Luckily, my university has an online database of old periodicals, so hopefully I can get a copy of that specific issue. Thanks for the suggestion!

Ave TraderTrey9785,

Many apologies for butting in on your thread.

I read the interesting words "an online database of old periodicals", I have to ask, do you have any that might possibly contain articles about Roman Military Diplomas?

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo
[Image: spedius-mcmxliii.gif]
~~~~~~Jim Poulton~~~~~~
North London Wargames Group
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#7
Matt,
awesome post!!

and a great question also on the blades of Caesar's time, a question that I was scratching my head on as well. I am always a bit smarter.

I have a question. Could it be possible that the Mainz, Fulham and Hispaniensis blades are really almost one and the same?

I am not sure how to articulate this right, but are we looking at these three blades from a modern industrial manufacturing standpoint? Yes, there are differences that can be seen by the naked eye as well as measured, but is it possible that the differences in these blades is really just a difference in one sword smith at one part of the Republic/Empire over another?

We have digs from different time periods that show when believe these different types of blades were found, but is it enough to suggest that there was a evolution in these weapons (I think the Pompeii pattern is, but excluding it).

If there were three legionaries at inspection arms with a Mainz, Fulham and Hispaniensis displayed, would it get the concerned attention of the Optio or Centurio as being out of place like it would be with three modern U.S. Army Infantry soldiers showing up with a M-16 A1, M-16 A2, and a M-16 A4?

Has anyone out there done any experiments to suggest one pattern of blade offers certain advantages or disadvantages over the other?

Limited experience has shown me that a slightly shorter blade is easier and safer to draw in formation. Thoughts?

A bit off topic, but not too far I hope.

Cheers!!

Mike
Mike Daniels
a.k.a

Titus Minicius Parthicus

Legio VI FFC.


If not me...who?

If not now...when?
:wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#8
Mike, I have been pondering with the same thoughts!

First, I don`t see any "evolution" between the Mainz and Fulham type gladiuses. Perhaps the so-called Fulham type swords were just simpler and quicker made Mainz gladiuses. Then there were those third-century semi-spathas to mess things up completely :wink: ...

Maybe we really are too rigid in our classification of roman swords, the variation with the swords could have been surprisingly common. What about this sword in my attachment? To be exact "the blade is too long for a Pompeii style sword and too short for a Fulham style and the length of the whole blade is too short for a Hispaniensis :lol: etc..."
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
[Image: fectio.png]
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#9
Sorry, for some reason I am not able to put my attachment here, sorry :oops: ....
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
[Image: fectio.png]
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#10
Virilis,
glad to see I am not the only one out there. Smile

V/r
Mike
Mike Daniels
a.k.a

Titus Minicius Parthicus

Legio VI FFC.


If not me...who?

If not now...when?
:wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#11
Matthew,

Thanks for all of the information, I'll definitely keep all if it in mind as I look for the appropriate sword to purchase. The time-line for the development for each model was helpful as well.

Spedius -- as to your request about articles containing Roman Military Diplomas -- I highly doubt it. There aren't many readings on the Romans to be found (that I've encountered) but if you needed anything specific I suppose you could try contacting the Gelman Library at George Washington University -- they might be able to provide any information they have. I'm not sure how receptive they would be to anyone not a student, however, they have aided non-students in the past.

Check out www.gwu.edu/gelman/ for contact information. Hopefully that will help.

Thanks guys!
Gaius Tertius Severus "Terti" / Trey Starnes

"ESSE QUAM VIDERE"
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#12
You're welcome, Trey!

Mike, I agree that we might be getting a little hair-splitty about the differences between the Mainz and Fulham. But I do think the hispaniensis is not the same. All the surviving hispaniensis blades are early, and they're all over 24" long. (There is a scabbard from Kalkriese which might be from a hispaniensis blade, but I don't know the exact dimensions so it might not.) All the Mainz and Fulham swords that I know of are from AD or maybe late BC, and as far as I know they're all 22" or less in length. Clearly there is some gray area and some overlap, but it really seems to me to be a development over time, not just regional or personal variation.

The comparative advantages/disadvantages of the different styles would depend a lot on the individual blades. Generally, the longer hispaniensis is better at cutting, while the shorter blades would be better for thrusting, of course, but if you try to carry that into some analysis of tactics or whatever, that may be stretching the point. I also don't think that it was a matter of space in formation, since the evidence we have indicates that each legionary was supposed to have 3 feet of space, or more. Plenty of room. I'm not sure we have enough information about the exact battle conditions back then to draw any more solid conclusions!

It does seem pretty safe to say that like every other piece of gear, there was no sense of perfect uniformity in the ranks. A century in 30 BC would have a mix of hispaniensis and probably Mainz types, while in 30 AD you'd see Mainze, Fullham, and Pompeii styles. Fashions and styles were very strong, but there was variation within those styles.

Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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