Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
late roman equipment
#1
Hello

I am starting to make a late roman legionary equipment (middle s. IV) for the Septimani Seniores, Now i am working in the shoes and the braccae (with models of Deenmark). Some request of help:

Tunic:

How is better to make the orbiloculi and clavi?

I need some patterns of orbiloculi and clavi to have more variety of tunics in the Septimani.


Late roman spatha:

Deepeeka have two diferent models of roman spatha but I don´t like both.
I like the Sarmatian spatha of Samarkandia to show the influence of non occidental peoples in the late roman equipment.

[url:35mp2rkj]http://www.samarkandia.com/fr/produit-2_16.php[/url]

Is this weapon historical acurate for the roman army of the IV sigle?

Size of the sield

Now in the Septimani we are studing the size of the shield and we think that is better the oval size of 110 cm x 90 cm(flat) What do you think?

How to divide the spear for the transport?

Most of the spear in reenactment are very short (no more tall than the soldier) because longer won´t fit in the car.

Can someone help me with a sistem to divide the spear in two parts?

Salve atque Vale
Titus Amatius Paulus
commilito legionis VIIII Hispaniae
et Septimanorum seniorum
Aka: Pablo Amado
Reply
#2
Great questions - I'm wrestling with several of these myself.

In Comitatus many are moving from plain red cloth clavii to tablet woven bands as they upgrade to new tunics. These are applied, rather than woven into the fabric, but I believe this is not unknown in finds - the idea is that the more costly decoration would be cut off & moved to the next tunic. it's certainly faster than hand embroidery.

I don't know how to make tablet weave into orbiculi, so I have actually been looking for some cheap tapestry weave object to cut up - I'll let you know how that goes.

My shield is 107 X 81cm & pretty solid. Others swear by wider shields to give enhanced passive defence, but I'm not very strong, so I actually have a lot of trouble hefting it overhead or for active defence in open order fighting etc. In the longer term I want a smaller 'patrol' sized shield for skirmish drills and marches, no finds to support that, just the Strategikon.

Don't know if a take down spear would be considered combat safe - I'm looking for a roof rack & plastic drainpipe for mine.

Let us know how you get on Smile
Salvianus: Ste Kenwright

A member of Comitatus Late Roman Historical Re-enactment Group

My Re-enactment Journal
       
~ antiquum obtinens ~
Reply
#3
I'm not sure how much this can help with the spatha, but here is a link to a great arms and armor website that has really fantastic designs. The patterns might be of help, and there is also another spatha under the German swords section (go figure that one).

[url:vq3d99u0]http://www.ancientedge.com/subcategory_40.html[/url]
Gaius Tertius Severus "Terti" / Trey Starnes

"ESSE QUAM VIDERE"
Reply
#4
Quote:HelloHow is better to make the orbiloculi and clavi?
I need some patterns of orbiloculi and clavi to have more variety of tunics in the Septimani.
I'm still struggling with those too...
Quote:Deepeeka have two diferent models of roman spatha but I don´t like both.
I like the Sarmatian spatha of Samarkandia to show the influence of non occidental peoples in the late roman equipment.
[url:358urg09]http://www.samarkandia.com/fr/produit-2_16.php[/url]
Is this weapon historical acurate for the roman army of the IV sigle?
I have some doubts about that. First of all it seems fairly long, longer than practical for an infantryman (even spathae were not overlong). But also, if you portray a regular Roman soldier, I think that most weapons were manufactured by the state. Such a weapon a as this does not reflect that practise. Just my thoughts though.
Quote:Now in the Septimani we are studing the size of the shield and we think that is better the oval size of 110 cm x 90 cm(flat) What do you think?
Mine is is 1.18 x 0.97m.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#5
Quote:In Comitatus many are moving from plain red cloth clavii to tablet woven bands as they upgrade to new tunics. These are applied, rather than woven into the fabric, but I believe this is not unknown in finds - the idea is that the more costly decoration would be cut off & moved to the next tunic. it's certainly faster than hand embroidery.

Is tablet weave documentable? I read that they are exclusively tapestry-woven, much to my disappointment.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
Reply
#6
Thanks for your advices

To Tradertrey

This spatha

[url:w52js09h]http://www.ancientedge.com/subcategory_40.html[/url]

is great but is price is all budget that I make for my late roman equipment.

To salvianus

The samarkandia´s sarmatian spatha are more long than the deepeeka late roman spathas (107 cm aprox - 90 85 cm) and is more narrow, is a cavalry sword more than for infantery but in the late roman empire the fabricae system to supply the army went to decadence, still working but use etnic, foreign and barbaric designs for the roman´s regular army (the comitates) because most of the new recruist are foreigns.

The Tunic

With the orbiliculy and clavi I am triying to paint them rater than sew pieces over the tunic but I still interested in designs and patterns

The shield

In the septimani we are modified the strategicon´s shield design for the oval size

Thanks

Salve atque Vale

T. Amatius Paulus
Titus Amatius Paulus
commilito legionis VIIII Hispaniae
et Septimanorum seniorum
Aka: Pablo Amado
Reply
#7
Quote:
Titus Amatius Paulus:4ln3pd8w Wrote:HelloHow is better to make the orbiloculi and clavi?
I need some patterns of orbiloculi and clavi to have more variety of tunics in the Septimani.
I'm still struggling with those too...

Gosh, it sounds like there's a market here.

I have a sister-in-law and she's a weaver. I am desperately trying to convince her to take this on. If enough people have a problem with this, it could be profitable!


Anyway, here are lots of fragments with good close-ups.

http://www.calacademy.org/research/anth ... lintro.htm

Search the database for "Coptic" and "Textiles"

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

Moderator, RAT

Rules for RAT:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules">http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules for posting

Oh! and the Toledo helmet .... oh hell, forget it. :? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" />:?
Reply
#8
Quote:I have a sister-in-law and she's a weaver. I am desperately trying to convince her to take this on. If enough people have a problem with this, it could be profitable!

I'd like to see some samples of her work, if you can convince her, Travis :wink:

I have orbiculli, but there's no embroidery or pattern on them Sad
Jaime
Reply
#9
Quote:
Travis:tcb2deub Wrote:I have a sister-in-law and she's a weaver. I am desperately trying to convince her to take this on. If enough people have a problem with this, it could be profitable!

I'd like to see some samples of her work, if you can convince her, Travis :wink:

I have orbiculli, but there's no embroidery or pattern on them Sad

Problem is she doesn't do tapestry weft-faced stuff! She can of course. I'm trying to convince her. She doesn't do it professionally, it's just a hobby, but she does some beautiful stuff. She made my mother-in-law a fabulous throw a while back. It's like a lot of things though, it's hard to exploit...er...encourage others talents for profit since it takes the fun out of it.

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

Moderator, RAT

Rules for RAT:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules">http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?Rules for posting

Oh! and the Toledo helmet .... oh hell, forget it. :? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" />:?
Reply
#10
Quote:Is tablet weave documentable? I read that they are exclusively tapestry-woven, much to my disappointment.

Sadly, not that I know of. As I understand it both integral tapestry woven and applique embroidery strips were used (D'Amato, Osprey MAA 425), but not tablet weave as we have it. Sad

For me, tablet weave is just an affordable, hand made alternative to machine made braids, having already ruled out hand embroidery or integral weaving due to availability & cost. I know tablet weaving was used in the Saxon period to braid decorative strips into garments whilst on the warp-weighted loom (Owen-Crocker, Dress in Anglo-Saxon England 1986) & seems to approach the more regular geometric tapesty weaves.

Both MacDowall and Sumner (Osprey WAR 15 and MAA 390) refer to the removal and reuse of integral segmenta, so I'm hoping the end result would sometimes look similar. My second best tunic, for wearing under armour & for mucky jobs, will have plain cloth segmenta which I hope to embroider (roughly!) with some simple designs. Big Grin
Salvianus: Ste Kenwright

A member of Comitatus Late Roman Historical Re-enactment Group

My Re-enactment Journal
       
~ antiquum obtinens ~
Reply
#11
My new tunic uses (machine-made) woven bands, but I used one-colour orbiculi. I think it looks neat too! With my stitching it certainly doesn't look machine made :roll:

I'm much better with a brush than a needle, and I'm thinking of trying a 100% decorated tunic someday, in linen, with linen decoration that I have hand-painted using ...??? acrylics? I'm certain I can produce some nice work that I can then stitch on.

Has anyone tried this?
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
Reply
#12
Quote:My new tunic uses (machine-made) woven bands, but I used one-colour orbiculi.

What sort of pattern are you using? If it looks more the business, I could be tempted to reallocate my tablet weave to my later period gear, especially if I could get a similar, but not identical, pattern.

For orbiculi I was thinking about the uniformity of design on each tunic. I suppose cross-stitch would be hopelessly wrong? I know one end of a needle from the other, I swear, the pointy bit hurts. :lol:
Salvianus: Ste Kenwright

A member of Comitatus Late Roman Historical Re-enactment Group

My Re-enactment Journal
       
~ antiquum obtinens ~
Reply
#13
I have emboidered my late Roman tunic's clavi and 'orbiculli' and I would be the first to agree that it is extremely time consuming for someone who is much more used to carving bone than doing embroidery. However, if you had someone who was a keen embroiderer (although they would probably require greater competence than simple cross-stitch embroidery) they might be able to embroider some of the simpler designs much more quickly. What I am thinking of here is the figural designs such as eagles and warriors, which are sometimes little more than outlines with a little internal detail, compared to some of the geometric designs which leave very little of the background colour showing.
For the embroidery on my clavi I copied a simple vine pattern I took from a tunic auctioned at Christie's a year or two ago. The beauty of this design was that I could gradually build it up, starting with the double lined border of each clavus, then, when time allowed, adding a rippled line along the centre of each clavus. To this I later added the triple leaf motif in each clavus terminal. This is as far as I have got so far but at none of these stages has it looked unfinished. Each successive stage has simply made it seem more decorated. I have still to add the leafy offshoots from the rippled line which will complete the vine pattern itself. At some stage after that I will add the upward curving projections which give the impression of saw teeth on the outer edges of each clavus.

The only caveat I would give towards embroidery, is that although I have heard of embroidered clavi and orbiculi I have not been able to get pictures of any which were made by any technique other than weaving. Therefore I have no guarantee that my embroidery will look correct.

One of these days I will get myself a digital camera and take a photo I can post up so that my hard work can be torn up by those who know more about this sort of thing than me.

Crispvs :roll:
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#14
Guys, could you post some pictures please?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#15
Quote: What I am thinking of here is the figural designs such as eagles and warriors, which are sometimes little more than outlines with a little internal detail, compared to some of the geometric designs which leave very little of the background colour showing.

Interesting observation - I had assumed the geometric designs would be simplest. We really need a webpage with every example under the sun with proper provenance labels. Idea

Quote:The beauty of this design was that I could gradually build it up
Cunning. Big Grin
Salvianus: Ste Kenwright

A member of Comitatus Late Roman Historical Re-enactment Group

My Re-enactment Journal
       
~ antiquum obtinens ~
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The arms, equipment and impact of Late Roman Clibanarii ValentinianVictrix 81 23,073 03-12-2013, 01:47 AM
Last Post: Alanus

Forum Jump: