Plaid in the ancient world

[Commilito]

I have seen plaid drawn in many paintings of Gallic warriors and even some others wearing it. But I have never read something that said for sure that the ancients had it for sure or certainly did not have it.

So, my question has two points.

1. Did they have plaid?

2. If so, do you think there would have been enough cross-cultural exchange, that by about 200-250 A.D., Roman units may have worn plaid pants? I am not talking about frontier vexillations, but an actual legionary unit. (Their equipment was getting pretty scattered, not in poor quality sense, but really disparate from legionary to legionary at this time).

Thanks for the help.

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!

Oh, yes, plaid cloth definitely existed! The best finds are from the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age salt mines at Hallstat, where dozens of preserved scraps and pieces were found. Virtually all were twills of various sorts, and most were striped or checked in some way. And since they were all old rags or scraps used to wrap tool handles or for wedging tool sockets and such, they are clearly just every-day lower class stuff, not the aristocratic fabrics that one expects to find in wealthy graves. There are checks and plaids from other Roman-era finds as well. I believe there are also enough solid colors (though still twills) to show that plaids and checks were not the ONLY thing worn!

The one thing to keep in mind is that there is no evidence for any Scottish-style system of "clan tartans" or the like. So it's a good idea not to use identifiable clan tartan plaids, even though the ancients were fully capable of weaving them, simply because someone in the audience will spot it and ask an embarrassing question.

Legionaries were probably wearing things like long-sleeved tunics and plaid trousers long before the third century. It seems that nearly half of all legionaries were non-Italian even in the mid-first century, and of course almost all the auxiliaries were. These men were born and raised in the provinces and most never went to Italy, they'd be used to the local fashions and colors. Tacitus mentions the residents of Rome being horrified by the barbaric appearance of the Rhine legions during the Year of Four Emperors. Heck, even Julius Caesar caught flak for wearing a long-sleeved Gallic tunic in the Senate, of all places. (Well, he was Caesar, HE could get away with such behavior...) It's quite likely that most of us are far too uniform in our dress! (We can't prove that there WAS a Roman army uniform at all!) By 200 AD, gads, I shudder to think!

Vale,

Matthew

[tlclark]

Matt is right.

We have frescoes from the late bronze age finds in Knossos and Thera, and we also have warp weighted looms with multiple heddles which is what you would need to make not just plaid but all kinds of patterned cloth.

Travis

[Commilito]

thanks.

I wasn't sure if it was appropriate for a member of Legio II Parthica, born&raised in Italy to wear plaid, but as you said, I guess a lot of them did! Thanks everyone.

[Commilito]

hi, quick question, i dont think its important enough for another topic.

Did the late romans wear undertunics?

[John M McDermott]

I seem to remember an ancient writer of Caesar's time referring to Celts walking around in the "national plaid". This suggests there could have been a specific plaid for a specific tribe, but we don't know what it was. Neither does anyone when it comes to the modern era Scots. The clan tartan was a fiction made up by English tailors in the 19th century. Scottish clans had no written records of what type of tartan belonged to which clan. They had them, but didn't bother to tell anyone else. There are paintings of Scottish prisoners of war, but the value of these is questionable also.

[falco]

There's been a lot of debate about the origins of tartan amongst Scots reenactment groups in the UK (the pattern is Tartan..a plaid is the garment..even of solid colour)..consensus is that while checks & stripes were in use in the ancient world, Tartan,as we think of it,with a complex repeating patten can't be dated before the 16thcent.
Steve

[FAVENTIANVS]

http://personales.ya.com/ad932102038/ge ... get27.html I know, I know... the fibula is moved of place! :evil:
http://personales.ya.com/ad932102038/ge ... get46.html

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Commilito

Commilito wrote:

hi, quick question, i dont think its important enough for another topic. Did the late romans wear undertunics?

Yes!

wasn't sure if it was appropriate for a member of Legio II Parthica, born&raised in Italy to wear plaid, but as you said, I guess a lot of them did! Thanks everyone

I do not think that there is any evidence that they did although going native is always an attractive idea. However if you are reconstructing a Legionary based in the east an eastern native style would probably be more appropriate.

With Auxiliaries the situation was possibly more fluid. Early Auxiliary troops are said to have supplied their own clothing and weapons.The clothing found with the third century Thorsberg warrior consisted of a blue checked sagum but plain red tunic and un-dyed wool trousers. While this is seen by many as traditional Germanic costume, some German and Scandinavian scholars have suggested the clothing was from the Roman provinces as was most of the associated weaponry. There has therefore been the suggestion that the man was actually an Auxiliary in the Roman army returning home helping to spread Roman influences.

2. If so, do you think there would have been enough cross-cultural exchange, that by about 200-250 A.D., Roman units may have worn plaid pants? I am not talking about frontier vexillations, but an actual legionary unit. (Their equipment was getting pretty scattered, not in poor quality sense, but really disparate from legionary to legionary at this time).

I personally do not see why a Legion based in it's own camp would start to wear Plaid pants and I know of no evidence to support any assertion that they did. The Roman army however did certainly adopt native styles both in terms of equipment and clothing although to some extent it was then Romanised. The Sagum is supposed to have been of Gallic origin for example. We should remember that to early imperial Romans long sleeved tunics and trousers on their own would have been considered 'native' whether they were decorated or not.

In the period that you suggest and for Legio II Parthica in particular the Roman army was probably the most uniform that it ever was with soldiers of all ranks wearing long sleeved tunics, trousers and sagum cloaks.
However the evidence that we have would imply that their clothes were overall rather plain and only decorated with the traditional Roman clavi and coloured bands on the sleeves.

Later more elaborate designs were adopted possibly from eastern influences. So that the later army is wearing a costume that is possibly Germanic or Gallic in origin but decorated with a mixture of traditional classical and eastern motifs. This is then seen by the peoples outside the empire as Roman costume and in turn is again copied by them! So in the famous depiction of Stilicho wearing highly decorated clothing this should not be seen as a Roman officer of Germanic origin wearing Barbarian costume but an officer of Germanic origin aspiring to look Roman.

Graham.

[tlclark]

So in the famous depiction of Stilicho wearing highly decorated clothing this should not be seen as a Roman officer of Germanic origin wearing Barbarian costume but an officer of Germanic origin aspiring to look Roman.

Graham, Are you familiar with Lawrence Nees work out of the University of Delaware?

He seems to suggest that a lot of things we see and ascribe to Germanic origins are in fact Roman. This last comment reminded me a great deal of a lecture he gave on this very diptych.

Travis[/quote]

[Commilito]

true, about the possible lack of plaid in legio II Parthica, but as I recall, wasn't II Parthica based near Rome itself?

[Graham Sumner]

Commilito wrote:

true, about the possible lack of plaid in legio II Parthica, but as I recall, wasn't II Parthica based near Rome itself?
_________________
-thanks for reading.

Sean

Hello Sean. Yes the Legion was initially based at Alba outside Rome. So I would therefore think there was even less of a chance that they would go 'native'. based there. However as I mentioned in my earlier post even if they were just wearing rather plain long sleeved tunics and trousers that would have given some conservative Romans at that time a heart attack!

Did you read the follow up posts regarding your request for information about this Legions shield designs? If you are planning to make a reconstruction of a Legionary from this unit I would certainly be interested to see your results.

Travis wrote:

Graham, Are you familiar with Lawrence Nees work out of the University of Delaware?

Hi Travis,
No I have not seen any of his work has he had anything published?

I have however followed with interest your posts on leather armour did you read the thread about leather lorica segmentata?

Graham.

[tlclark]

Travis wrote:

Graham, Are you familiar with Lawrence Nees work out of the University of Delaware?

Hi Travis,
No I have not seen any of his work has he had anything published?

Oh yes, quite a bit. His ideas about the early Medieval are quite fascinating and quite contrarian compared to the conventional wisdom.

Here's his latest textbook, it should be a good place to start.

Nees, Lawrence.
Early medieval art.
Oxford : New York : Oxford University Press, 2002.

Him, Jas Elsner, and Thomas Mathews are among my favorite scholars on the late antique and early medieval.

Thomas Mathews "Clash of the Gods" is as fabulous an exercise in unconvential brillance as exists today.

I have however followed with interest your posts on leather armour did you read the thread about leather lorica segmentata?

Graham.

No I haven't. I'll have to look it up using the RAT search.

Thanks,

Travis