Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!)

[Sulla]

Yes and we dont even know where it is in rome. If we did we could get someone to go take several good pictures of it becouse it looks like it might be very interesting.

[Sulla]

I just emailed the photographer to see if he has a larger version and to ask where its at.

[Tarbicus]

Yeah, that's an exciting find. T M Valerius showed it to me last year. But I'm surprised no one else until now has brought it up again. I thought maybe this was because it hadn't been verified as real.

Take a look at the helmets and tell me they're real :wink:
http://romanofficer.com/permcol.html

[Sulla]

Of course thats that the question either way. If one item not being real in a collection automaticly made the rest fake then all of the museums of the world would be full of fakes. All tend to have atleast some fake pieces that got by them for one reason or another.

[Tarbicus]

True, but I don't actually mean the musculata piece is fake, just that the owner's conviction about the helmets casts serious doubt on his ability to accurately judge the rest of his collection. That's probably why it's been discussed so little.

[Sulla]

Seems like we should look it over for him then I need to go back and look and see if it mentions where it was found and by who.

[Sulla]

The photographer emailed me back and said he would send along a larger image and that the statue was in the Museo Capitolino. He also has some books and is going to see if there is a large image in them.

[Theodosius the Great]

Good work, Sulla


~Theo

[Theodosius the Great]

The following is from Travis L. Clark's website :

Ultimately we have to ask ourselves this question: Which is more likely, that we have lost a few elite bronze showpieces, or... that we have lost nearly 500 years of Roman military equipment for officers? There were far more officers in the history of the Roman Empire than emperors or wealthy legates. Considering that we have bronze armor, either whole or their fragments, from Etruscan, Sammite, Italic, and Greek sources (and many others besides, going back to the bronze age) how is it that only this piece of Roman military equipment disappeared in its entirety? I think the most compelling answer is that they were made from perishable materials and that the few bronze examples did not survive, but I could be wrong

That's a good observation but hardly a fair comparison, Imo. I've been thinking about this lately.

Sure, we have survivals of muscled armor from the Samnites and Greeks (in modern Greece). But Greece and central Italy are notorious for having few, confined spaces that are suitable for set-piece battles. Both are mountainous countries. Think about it. How many battles of Chaeronea have taken place ? I can think of at least three major ones from both Greek and Roman times. So if you continously have battles in the same places, of course, you're going to find more spoils for archeologists to recover.

Hoplites and Phalangites seem to have worn the musculata far more than Roman legionaries. Now when we're talking about the Romans we're talking about a people who only fought as Hoplites for a brief period. For the post-Hoplite (i.e. legionary) army, the musculata seems to have been largely reserved for those who could afford them, mostly Senators and Equestrians who were the legates and tribunes. Only this tiny nucleus of the Roman army seems to have had the means to acquire hellenistic style armor.

And, most importantly, the Roman Empire spanned an area of some 2.3 million square miles at its height and had literally countless battles and skirmishes all over the place but probably not in the same place twice for about 95% of the time.

Three major differences.

~Theo

[Sulla]

I think its fair to say they had both and we have no idea the percentage of each. And thats all we can know until something more is discovered.

[Graham Sumner]

Jim wrote:

Take a look at the helmets and tell me they're real
http://romanofficer.com/permcol.html

mmmm.... looks like someone tapped into Mike Bishop's worst nightmares and made them a reality! The question is of course, when were they made?

Graham.

[Felix]

The following is from Travis L. Clark's website :

Ultimately we have to ask ourselves this question: Which is more likely, that we have lost a few elite bronze showpieces, or... that we have lost nearly 500 years of Roman military equipment for officers? There were far more officers in the history of the Roman Empire than emperors or wealthy legates. Considering that we have bronze armor, either whole or their fragments, from Etruscan, Sammite, Italic, and Greek sources (and many others besides, going back to the bronze age) how is it that only this piece of Roman military equipment disappeared in its entirety? I think the most compelling answer is that they were made from perishable materials and that the few bronze examples did not survive, but I could be wrong

That's a good observation but hardly a fair comparison, Imo. I've been thinking about this lately.

Sure, we have survivals of muscled armor from the Samnites and Greeks (in modern Greece). But Greece and central Italy are notorious for having few, confined spaces that are suitable for set-piece battles. Both are mountainous countries. Think about it. How many battles of Chaeronea have taken place ? I can think of at least three major ones from both Greek and Roman times. So if you continously have battles in the same places, of course, you're going to find more spoils for archeologists to recover.

Hoplites and Phalangites seem to have worn the musculata far more than Roman legionaries. Now when we're talking about the Romans we're talking about a people who only fought as Hoplites for a brief period. For the post-Hoplite (i.e. legionary) army, the musculata seems to have been largely reserved for those who could afford them, mostly Senators and Equestrians who were the legates and tribunes. Only this tiny nucleus of the Roman army seems to have had the means to acquire hellenistic style armor.

And, most importantly, the Roman Empire spanned an area of some 2.3 million square miles at its height and had literally countless battles and skirmishes all over the place but probably not in the same place twice for about 95% of the time.

Three major differences.

~Theo

Theo - some good thoughts! I would put a basic question in response to the challenge: Why is it that leather armour seems to be so much more perishable than other artifacts of leather? This same question of leather armour plagues Viking enthusiasts as well as Roman ones, and the existence of thousands of other bits - shoes, pouches, belts or what have you - belies the notion that leather armour "just rots away".

[Graham Sumner]

Theo wrote:

And we have TONS of leather-work that survive from the Roman period - mostly boots. But no armor, not even a few pteruges.

Not strictly true Theo. I have recently spoken to a couple of archaeologists, one told me they were working on some leather-work from a well known site which they believed were pteryges. Report forthcoming?

Another had found some pieces of hardened leather which they thought could well be armour but there does not appear to be any likelihood that they will be published in the immediate future. In 'Roman Military Clothing 3' there was a reconstruction of a late Roman Senator wearing leather armour based on finds from Ballana in Nubia.

There are of course examples of leather horse armour such as the chamfrons from Vindolanda and Newstead and the leather lammelar from Dura.

I think most leather experts would tell you that leather is extremely suitable for body armour combining lightness with strength and flexibility. Not only would it be easier to produce than metal armour it would not cause so much body sweat and rust. It can of course also be treated to make it waterproof. There have been many instances in the past and amongst a variety of cultures of leather armour being used well into the gunpowder age. This is of course not proof that Roman leather musculata or segmentata existed but I believe the possibility should not be dismissed out of hand and that the argument that it is not practical and therefore never existed, is wrong.

Not immediately available to hand but there is an ancient reference to an martinet general who on a tour of the eastern army was able to rip apart the armour of some soldiers! A bit hard to imagine if the armour was metal, but I suppose it is possible with a poorly made or maintained scale shirt.

Nevertheless I think there has been an unfair bias against leather armour in the recent past, probably because it appears in Hollywood films so often and they can not be right can they!

Graham.

[Sulla]

Interesting comments and even teasing us with pteryges

[Theodosius the Great]

Not strictly true Theo. I have recently spoken to a couple of archaeologists, one told me they were working on some leather-work from a well known site which they believed were pteryges. Report forthcoming?

Hey, I'm glad to be wrong on this point, Graham
I hope they verify their findings.

As for possible fragments of hardened armor, I wonder if they resemble any part of a musculata. Earlier we talked about those metal fragments that definitely appear to be from a musculata (although, their authenticity is in question at the moment).

Leather lamellar : has that been confirmed to be Roman ? Maybe it's Persian ?

Waterproofing leather : hmm...would the Romans have known this ? It wouldn't surprise me but I've never heard of the possibility until now. Before today, my main issue with the possible impracticality of leather was that it eventually soaked, softened, then rotted in a span of weeks. But waterproofing would seem to alleviate this problem, assuming the Romans knew about / could do it. How could they do it ? Maybe coating it in wax ?

Nevertheless I think there has been an unfair bias against leather armour in the recent past, probably because it appears in Hollywood films so often and they can not be right can they!

Hehe, I don't belong to the camp that says Hollywood always gets it wrong. I like seeing Attic helmets, although they perhaps overdo it a bit.

~Theo