basic armor

[Matt Lukes]

Okay, not to be super-picky or anything, but leather is leather, rawhide is rawhide- they're quite different. Clearly there's evidence of untanned hide armor, but I don't think there's anything in the way of actual leather armor, right?

As for the sculpture, certainly that musculata isn't metal, but what evidence is it that it's actually protective armor? Why couldn't it just be a garment? That's the key point right- was there ever actual armor made of leather. I certainly see no reason someone who isn't actually a combatant mightn't wear a leather version of the musculata- it's lighter, more breathable...

Matt

[Flavius Promotus]

Travis, great article

H. Ubl has presented several images of similarly 'soft' musculatae from the Antonine period at the ROMEC XV. In his opinion they are to be seen as subarmales. Although it was a very interesting presentation I was not convinced very much. Furthermore there's a very similar statue with a squamata (!) draped over a tree stump in exactly the same way. This parallel suggests the 'soft' musculata was really some kind of armour, not the armour padding.
(I am no art historian, but if you are a Roman general or emperor and want to display a symbol for your military virtus together with your heroic nudity, then what would you choose? Only the armour padding or the armour itself?)

[tlclark]

Matt,

As for the sculpture, certainly that musculata isn't metal, but what evidence is it that it's actually protective armor? Why couldn't it just be a garment? That's the key point right- was there ever actual armor made of leather. I certainly see no reason someone who isn't actually a combatant mightn't wear a leather version of the musculata- it's lighter, more breathable...

Well hardened leather was a very serviceable form of armor in the middle ages, so we shouldn't disparage leather armor too much. Also, this might be the first layer of a multi-layer protection with mail or plate underneath.

I think the evidence suggests it's leather, and I think that the leather has many virtures, the first being is that it can be easily molded and create this wonderful decorative object.

Also, I think that there is a very strong possibility that by the high empire, these are no longer functional but entirely ceremonial pieces of armor, part of the uniform. There is some evidence that "campaign" armor was a lot simpler and more practical.

(SHAMELESS OT QUESTION Matt, have you ever made any Byzantine open work buckles?)

Florian

Thanks.

I am no art historian, but if you are a Roman general or emperor and want to display a symbol for your military virtus together with your heroic nudity, then what would you choose? Only the armour padding or the armour itself?

I would agree. When you look at these things close up it's clear they are musculatae.

To keep this more on topic (Yes Tasia! I remember you!) check this out.

A female musculata from the Agora museum in Athens.

[Matt Lukes]

Well hardened leather was a very serviceable form of armor in the middle ages, so we shouldn't disparage leather armor too much. Also, this might be the first layer of a multi-layer protection with mail or plate underneath.

I don't mean to disparage leather as an armor- the absolute least that can be said of it is that it's definitely better than no armor at all, right? The issue I have is not with functionality- whether there COULD have been leather armor- but existence- if there actually WAS leather armor in use during the Imperial period. That statue certainly shows a garment that appears much like musculata armor, but I don't see it lending any concrete credence to the idea of leather armor in service. Certainly we know leather was widely used for garments, so we can say that it's definitely possible what the Emporer has beside him could be a martial garment- made to look like armor without having the weight, etc., but given the huge dispartiy in protective value, I really can't see anyone who could have proper metal armor using leather. As a substitute worn by non-combatants- 'part of the uniform' as you put it Travis, sounds plausible, but then again I'd classify that as a garment and not actual armor. I suppose one could argue that they would be made to offer at least some protection- but since that wouldn't be their primary function, I'd still go for the garment classification myself.

This is all academic with respect to the topic though- especially if one does SCA fighting! IIRC some people use leather over plastic or metal- or at least did once upon a time- but these are certainly inauthentic and unprovable, respectively. If you're actually going to have someone whacking on you with a rattan sword, you really can't go for proper authentic Roman armor anyway- the fittings are far too fragile. A Newstead cuirass might work, but I still expect that you'd have to sacrifice some authenticity in favor of functionality and servicability. And of course you do have to suffer the inauthenticity of a wire cage on your hlemet anyway, so slight adjustments to the armor aren't going to stand out (ha).

Matt

[tlclark]

Matt,

I don't want to hijack Tasia's thread here, so I will post this in a new thread on the Roman Military History forum.

Travis

[Tasia]

No No!

Please keep this up here if you would!

It's not hijacking if you're teaching someone.

But if you've already done so I'll try and find that forum. This has been an excellent discussion for me to follow.

Tasia

[Caius Fabius]

I have about 29 years in the SCA and only 25+ as a Roman re-enactor/researcher. (I am getting too old to remember exact dates and events!)

There is a yahoogroup for SCA Romans, but it doesn't get much traffic. RomanisRomanorvm newsgroup was originally a paper publication for Roman's in the SCA, but has changed focus toward reenacting more than just SCA stuff.

While we have several Roman fighters, (especially Hibernicus and LEG IX in California) and various SCA Roman knights and fighters, it is difficult to find Roman mass combat in most SCA events, although since "Gladiator" there is complaint in Ansteorra and Calontir that there are 'too many" Roman events! (Mostly by the swishy poke folks!)

We also have combat using non-rattan weapons, which allow us to "fight" in more authentic armor. At Lafe, Arkansas in March 2006 there will be a few battles, and cavalry is welcome! We, (Roman reenactors) have events all over the USA and Europe, but not as many as the SCA! for photos of the 2005 event, you can join up at the Lafe 43AD yahoogroups to see a bit of what we do. Some of the "Roman units" don't accept women fighters, some do. The auxiliaries and enemies of Roma are more open to female fighters in many cases.

Some SCA armor can be authentic, again, the folks in LEG IX HISP have been fighting Roman SCA style for some time. Many of the SCA Romans prefer to play "later Roman", and that seems to fit even better into SCA styles of combat!

Another household in the SCA that does Roman and pre-medieval stuff is called "the Imperium Antiquitas". Many members around the USA and europe are interested in this period in the SCA, as primary or secondary personnas.

There is also a possibility that there will be a new SCA type organization which will specialize in pre-medieval recreation! I think they are still working on the mundane legal stuff.

If I can be of any assistance in helping you with SCA Roman stuff, feel free to cntact me.

Caius Fabius (also my SCA name)
Ansteorra

[Tasia]

Salve Caius Fabius!

Thanks for the information. We are starting to get more Romans here in An Tir. I want to do things as authentic as possible because I know there are a lot of others that have interest as well.

I especially want to learn to do the cavalry maneuvers so I could perform them at an event. Though my horse, Solon, is the farthest thing possible from a Roman horse. He's a Percheron, about 2300 lbs. and tall enough I have to use a 55 gallong drum just to get on him. But even so, I still want to be able to teach all things Roman cavalry. :lol:

The new group you mentioned sounds fantastic. I'd love to be able to travel to some of the Ansteorra events.

Regards,

Tasia

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

Matt L., I definitely agree that leather and rawhide are different materials! The problem is that the few archeological finds are uncertain or have not been properly analyzed--it's also true that rawhide is far less likely to survive than leather of any sort. So I frankly don't know if that piece from Dura Europas is tanned or not! There is also ambiguity in the literary references, since translators are not always picky about technicalities between hide and leather, and some Latin words (or worse, Greek) can be ambiguous.

I'm like you, I feel that leather/hide had its place, but would not have been chosen as functional armor by someone who could get the best in metal armor. But they clearly did some things that we simply don't understand! Travis and I have been back and forth about this, and it seems we spend a lot of time shrugging our shoulders at each other. That image he posted blew my little mind the first time I saw it... I think that all his suggestions could be entirely correct. Or entirely wrong! I am firmly waffling. Isn't research great?

Oh, Tasia! Don't know if anyone has recommended it or not yet, but Vegetable-tanned leather is THE way to go for historical stuff (though other methods like brain-tanning and alum-tanning are options, too). Haven't updated the Legio XX page on leatherworking in a while, but it should still be helpful:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/leather.html

Valete,

Matthew

[Matt Lukes]

Hey Tasia- since the Ala (cavalry) is of interest to you, you might like seeing the artifacts on these pages:

Military Equipment-Horse.html

and

MilitaryEquipment-Horse Armor.html

Oh, and do you know that you'd have to ditch your stirrups? No such thing 1900 years ago

Matt

[Tasia]

I've always rode bareback since I've yet to find a saddle big enough to even fit Solon!!!

Jousting bareback will prove interesting but I hear even the Knights of the Middle Ages did some of that.

Thanks for the links!

I went through the image gallery - all the tombstones. Lots of horse and riders in varying forms of either bareback or the Roman saddle. What an amazing gallery.

Tasia

[Tasia]

Here's my Roman warhorse...

We'll have to pretend on the authenticity of size and breed though!

From an SCA Crown Event.



Tasia

[Dean Cunningham metalsmit]

Hi,

I don't often post here or anywhere for that matter but I just happened to catch this thread. Our very small reenactment group is based in Portland Oregon. Legio II AUG. You may contact me off list if you are interested in joining us at some events. Our big event is acorn war. but we attend a few SCA events each year as well as some other things. We have a small SCA attachment starting and they are working on a more authentic than normal SCA impression. It is almost impossible to do Roman of the mid 1st century in the SCA. I know because I've tried, and now want to try to get our guys to do needle felt or modified foam weapon fighting because this maintains ultimate accuracy, which is severly lacking in the SCA. Armour is easily made if you are good with your hands and we have a fabrica going right now where 3 of our guys in Newburg are making segmentata under the leadership of one of our master craftsman. Helmets will be on our list of to do kit(SCA and reproduction) and I will be assisting with that. As I said contact me off list at [email protected] if you have any questions.


Dean C

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

hock: that is one BIG horse Tasia!

You can search our imagebase at Romanarmy.com for pictures of tombstones of cavalrymen: see this link: imagebase

see also these links:
Chedworth Villa & Cirencester (Corinium) Museum

and
www.lastsquare.com

and:
Trajan's Roman Cavalry Site

[tlclark]

Tasia

What about a cavalry parade helmet? Would that satisfy SCA standards?

It would cover the face and protect it, but still look more authentic.

And since you want to be a cavalry re-enactor why not?

Here's some images.

http://direct.deepeeka.com/ah6713.htm

Travis