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Roman Military Diplomas - A Starter Kit!
#16
Yeah, hard to read the text, but if you consider the size of the fragment, there should be much more on it, methinks, or in other words: letters are too big (and seem very sloppy). It also seems to miss writing on the obverse. I know that happens sometimes under Antoninus Pius and this is supposed to date to his era, if I read it correctly (in which case the seller got his dating wrong, should be 138-161, not 3rd C). I cannot really make out the last three lines, they seem to include something like militaverunt and XX (instead of XXV). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that text is gibberish.
And hey, perhaps the best hint is the price. $700 for a fragment 1/2 or 1/4 of a diploma? Not unless all museums, collectors and academics were asleep.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#17
Quote:An opportunity for those interested in diplomas:
Ebay auction 6612514522 just closed and shows a half tabula of a diploma.
Confusedhock: tell us what you think of it and why 8)
Raeticus
www.romancoins.info

Ave Raeticus,

Thank you for your message and for "throwing down the gauntlet" so to speak.

I agree in part with Jasper and pelgr003, it is hard to read.

However, this is how much I've managed to decode.

01. IMP CAESAR DIVI HADRIANI F
02. DIVI TRAIANI PARTHICI NEPOS
03. DIVI NERVAE PRONEPOS T AELIVS
04. HADRIANVS AVG ANTONINVS PI
05. VS PONT MAX TRIB POT ? IMP ? COS
06. III P P EQVITIBVS ET PEDIT QVI
07. MILITANTER IN ALIS VII ET COH
08. XX QVAE APPELAN

Observations.

This is, supposedly, an auxiliary diploma issued during the reign of Antoninus Pius from between 142 and 145 possibly for Britannia. Britannia can be determined from the number of units ie. alis VII and coh XX.

Errors?

On line 04, AVG is out of sequence, it should be between ANTONINVS and PIVS.
On line 05, the ? could be POT V IMP II which would give us 142?
On line 06, EQVITIBVS should be EQVIT to match PEDIT.
On line 07, MILITANTER should be MILIT.
On line 08, APPELAN should be APPEL.

I repeat the question asked above, is it genuine?

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo
[Image: spedius-mcmxliii.gif]
~~~~~~Jim Poulton~~~~~~
North London Wargames Group
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#18
Uhhh, yes, you're quite right Jim. Strike my dumb remark on XX. But if your reading is correct, the diploma is missing the consular dating. And I still think it should include more text for a fragment that size. Especially if 27 units + the legal rights are supposed to fit on one tablet.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
Reply
#19
also,

i can't see any break-lines at the end of the diploma. If i look at the ldistance betwen the lines i would expect to see the upper half of a text at the bottom of the diploma.

i think that it is a fake.
gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
Rules for Posting

I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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#20
Ave Jasper & pelgr003,

I believe that you are both right. It must be a fake!

I think that Andreas has "bowled us a googly" to see what we make of it.

The fragment is aproximately 10 x 6 cm. which is quite large for a diploma fragment. It is supposed to represent the partial inner face of tablet I and one would assume, if tablet II supposedly contains the names of 27 units plus the constitution, that more abbreviations on this fragment could be expected.

One can also assume that, if genuine, the outer side of tablet II would have the names of seven witnesses inscribed on it. The outer face of tablet I appears to be blank?

What do you think?

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo
[Image: spedius-mcmxliii.gif]
~~~~~~Jim Poulton~~~~~~
North London Wargames Group
Reply
#21
Quote:An opportunity for those interested in diplomas:
Ebay auction 6612514522 just closed and shows a half tabula of a diploma.
Confusedhock: tell us what you think of it and why 8)
Raeticus
www.romancoins.info

Ave Raeticus,

You've read our views, what do you think of it and why?

Where was it found, by whom, when and how?

What is your decoding of the fragment, is it similar to ours?

Do you have a larger, sharper, clearer image of the diploma fragment?

Have any more fragments of this diploma been found?

Do you have any more new fragments that you would like us to decode?

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo
[Image: spedius-mcmxliii.gif]
~~~~~~Jim Poulton~~~~~~
North London Wargames Group
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#22
Good thinking all.

Where it was found ? I do not think it was "found" at all (even though more "fragments" may well appear on the market).

You picked the key points, an obvious fake:
> wrong shape and technique of letters,
> blank other side (not the witnesses but repetition of parts of the main text should be there)
> content with massive errors
> lower end not broken in a convincing way
....and some poor chap paid 700 plus Euros for it (one could almost hope the auction was manipulated by the seller and that no buyer was ripped of in the end).
Beware of such fakes with convincing patinas, I am seeing more and more of them.

Raeticus
www.romancoins.info
Reply
#23
Ave Raeticus,

I don't know about Jasper and pelgr003, but I really enjoyed the challenge.

I'm also pleased to read that we managed to pass your test.

Do you have any more diploma images to tantalise us with?

Has the number of diploma images in your database gone over 1,000 yet?

Have there been very many new "genuine" diploma discoveries made this year?

I will look forward to loads more interesting exchanges between us.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo.
[Image: spedius-mcmxliii.gif]
~~~~~~Jim Poulton~~~~~~
North London Wargames Group
Reply
#24
Hehe! Always good to be right (and a relief too, in a way) Big Grin
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
Reply
#25
Quote:Hehe! Always good to be right (and a relief too, in a way) Big Grin

Ave Jasper,

You are not wrong!

I must admit that, when I first started decoding the fake fragment, my mind was racing.

What if this is the top piece of another diploma fragment, etc.?

The further I got with this exercise then the doubts started creeping in.

Yes, it is nice to be proved right.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo
[Image: spedius-mcmxliii.gif]
~~~~~~Jim Poulton~~~~~~
North London Wargames Group
Reply


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