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In relation to the Trojan war and Homer as an historic source, I always have my doubts in the political structure field. Yesterday I was reading again some Lineal B documents and I had again the feeling that the world pictured there has very little in common with the Illiad. For instance, the kingdom of Pylos was divided in several districts, each of them ruled by an administrator called ko-re-te-re, I don´t think the title is even present in Homer, but certainly the struture of a centralized bureaucratic goverment with registers carefully stored in the Palace is totally absent. Another example, in the Palace of Cnossos a force of 600 war chariots is registered, similar to other powers in the Middle East in that pèriod, however in Homer war chariots are very few and only used as transports for the Heroes, while the army is basically described as an infantry force. IMO Homer had very little idea of what was the Micenian World really like.
AKA Inaki
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There is a couple of centuries between most of the Linear B evidence and Troy VIIa. Chariot combat certainly changed during this time. Before the time of Merneptah chariot archers dominated the battlefield. After this time the chariot became relegated to a supporting role and infantries began to dominate.
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What was the WANAX exactly? A king?
![[Image: 120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg/120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png) ![[Image: Estalada.gif]](http://webs.racocatala.cat/esteladaanimada/Estalada.gif)
Ivan Perelló
[size=150:iu1l6t4o]Credo in Spatham, Corvus sum bellorum[/size]
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WANAX is king. Achaic dialect-bronze age.
Later is O ANAX, TOY ANAKTOS (genetive) meaning again the king.
I possibly started as a title to war leader.
It means literlly the one "raised" possibly refering to the army raising the king on the shield. It was the custom of many IndoEuropean people.
Homer is first a poet and then a story or history teller.
Homer also implies that the royal authority was by no means absolute.
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Efkaristo Stefanos!
Ivan Perelló
[size=150:iu1l6t4o]Credo in Spatham, Corvus sum bellorum[/size]
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Khairete Stefanos,
what exactly does Agamemnon mean....?
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
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He who leads into patience or with patience.
AGO = I lead and MEMNON = who has much patience
or overpatient
AGAN = over the limit and MEMNON = who has much patience
Choose you pick....
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Quote:There is a couple of centuries between most of the Linear B evidence and Troy VIIa. Chariot combat certainly changed during this time. Before the time of Merneptah chariot archers dominated the battlefield. After this time the chariot became relegated to a supporting role and infantries began to dominate.
I am not sure about that chronology, anyway Micenian chariots carried no archers, but lancers
AKA Inaki
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Quote:I am not sure about that chronology, anyway Micenian chariots carried no archers, but lancers
There is not a shred of evidence to support the existence of Mykenaian chariot lancers. Crouwel and Littauer have comprehensively demonstrated that it is impossible to charge another chariot with a couched lance. Every other culture of the same time period used chariot archers extensively and there is nothing to suggest the Mykenaians were any different. Robert Drews' "End of The Bronze Age" is the best book to read on the subject.
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Quote:Aryaman2:3cb4nnci Wrote:I am not sure about that chronology, anyway Micenian chariots carried no archers, but lancers
There is not a shred of evidence to support the existence of Mykenaian chariot lancers. Crouwel and Littauer have comprehensively demonstrated that it is impossible to charge another chariot with a couched lance. Every other culture of the same time period used chariot archers extensively and there is nothing to suggest the Mykenaians were any different. Robert Drews' "End of The Bronze Age" is the best book to read on the subject. In fact, every picture of a Mycenian war chariot I know represents a lancer and not a single one an archer. Certainly I don´t think they would use the lance couched, they would use it as a stabbing weapon, as it is showed for instance in the Ur standard.
I know about Drews theory, but have not read the book, I am aware it is very controversial, and its chronology very criticised. I don´t have access to AJA so I have not read Littauer article either, but I would be very interested if you can provide me a brief resume.
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Homer presents Nestor advising mass chariot attack tactics and presents Patroklos killing a number of people before he dismounts from the chariot.
Dan and I have different opinions on the subject.
I intent to prove mine if we get a chariot at Watford. So I stop the argument here until I can have results of my atttempt.
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There are a couple of images of Mykenaian charioteers with throwing javelins, but these date after the relevant period - when the chariot archer is being phased out. There are no images of charioteers with long thrusting lances.
The Standard of Ur dates many centuries before the rise of the chariot archer. The chariots used during the relevant time period were light and fast and have no relation to the slow-moving wagons on this standard.
Both of the following articles are useful. I can't remember which one included the physical experiments with the couched lance.
Littauer and Crouwel "Chariots in Late Bronze Age Greece" Antiquity 57 (1983): 187-92.
Littauer "The Military Use of the Chariot in the Aegean in the Late Bronze Age" AJA 76 (1972): 145-57.
Drews' conclusions about the cause of the catastrophe are controversial (IMO he is wrong) but his assembly of the relevant data is comprehensive and his argument in favour of Mykenaian chariot archers is very strong.
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Quote:Homer presents Nestor advising mass chariot attack tactics and presents Patroklos killing a number of people before he dismounts from the chariot.
Patroklos also had a chariot with talking horses and he miraculously jumped his chariot over a ditch specifically dug to prevent chariots from crossing.
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Talking about Micenian charriot, my favorite explorer guy had made the experiment, watch his picture here & heard his Experiences
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick.
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I'm still waiting for images of Mykenaian chariot lancers.
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