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Pasta - did the Romans have it?
#1
The title says it all, really :?
Carus Andiae - David Woodall

"The greatest military machine in the history of the universe..."
"What is - the Daleks?"
"No... the Romans!" - Doctor Who: The Pandorica Opens
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#2
I'm afraid the answer here seems to be 'pick your theory of choice'. There is no proof, but neither can we exclude the possibility. Now, I've just ordered an 800-page book on the history of Mediterranean foodways and may be abler to get the info I need, but as things stand right now I'm not ready to pronounce one way or the other. There are three things i can say, though:

One crucial factor is the identity of 'tracta'. Some people assume that this is basically pasta - dried water paste - and its addition to dishes in Apicius our first evidence for this food. Others believe this refers to a thickening agent, possibly a varioety of dried breadcrumbs or crackers. The word itself derives from 'trahere' (to draw/pull), which may well be something pasta-like.

The second hinge factor is 'tria' / 'itrion' / 'itriyya'. This word is believed to be of Latin or Greek derivation, but first shows up in Arabic sources and refers to a food native to Southern Italy and Sicily. Unfortunatzely, it isn't thev kind of thing that got the attention of chroniclers, so by the time it shows up it is already a well-established thing. Also, it is not entirely sure itz means the same thing in the tenth century that it does in the thirteenth-century cookbook manuscript. Still, it's poissible that this is our 'tracta', a local tradition of pasta that does go back to Roman days. Not certain, though.

Thirdly, if Roman pasta existed, it was probably more like modern Spaetzle or Nockerln than the familiar Italian fare because the Romans did not yet grow durum wheat varieties but the soft wheat more suitable for breads and porridges. Soft wheat pasta is what makes modern Italians shudder in disgust when served North European 'noodles'.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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#3
Oh dear Confusedhock:

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Trust the Romans to make thing complicated :lol:

Anyway, thanks for that very comprehensive reply.
Carus Andiae - David Woodall

"The greatest military machine in the history of the universe..."
"What is - the Daleks?"
"No... the Romans!" - Doctor Who: The Pandorica Opens
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#4
I don't know much, but I did glean a tiny bit about this from the show "Good Eats" on Food Network.

From the nutrional anthropologist he routinely has on his show, I remember hearing that before durum wheat was available in Italia, the Roman lower class and some upper class were supposedly eating things similar to linguine - but it was an 'egg' pasta not a dried pasta like we so commonly see in use today.
Lucius (Ryan)
Montani Semper Liberi
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#5
From what I can tell, they had something sort of like pasta, although it was fried, not cooked in water. It was just a paste of wheat flour and water fried in oil, sometimes interpreted as pasta but very unlike what we are familiar with.

~Aurelia
Aurelia Coritana
aka Laura Sweet
[url:3tjsw0iy]http://www.theromanway.org[/url]
[url:3tjsw0iy]http://www.legionten.org[/url]

Si vales, gaudeo. (If you are well, then I am happy.)
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#6
Sounds delicious! :?

Thanks.
Carus Andiae - David Woodall

"The greatest military machine in the history of the universe..."
"What is - the Daleks?"
"No... the Romans!" - Doctor Who: The Pandorica Opens
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#7
Yes, that does sound delicious; it almost sounds like a wheat based "Johnny Cake" to me (If you substitute soft wheat for coarse corn meal or maize).

I may have to experiment with that a little, as well as making just a basic egg and soft wheat 'fresh' pasta - results will be posted tomorrow!
Lucius (Ryan)
Montani Semper Liberi
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#8
From the earlier post about egg pasta I wouldn't be surprised if there was
a version similar to German spaetzele. Flour,eggs, water and a little salt.
Very easy and probably very old.
Volker Bach will ,no doubt, have a good answer when his book arrives.
Andy Booker

Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs

Andronikos of Athens
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#9
Quote:From the earlier post about egg pasta I wouldn't be surprised if there was a version similar to German spaetzele. Flour,eggs, water and a little salt. Very easy and probably very old.

When I made a batch of 'pasta' this morning, I went ahead and used a spaetzele-like recipe. It came out alright, if a bit flavorless; also, one has to be careful about how hard a boil the water is going at, or else it tends to rip up the 'pasta' before it can fully cook.

The wheat cakes, cooked in the oven, come out almost like bucellatum, but much softer. If one fries them (I used olive oil and a little butter), they come out almost like a hushpuppy in consistency, and need to be made about the same size to prevent scorching or oil soaking.

I did not try pan-frying them, only submersion frying.
Lucius (Ryan)
Montani Semper Liberi
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#10
Interesting...

I shall have to have a go myself!
Carus Andiae - David Woodall

"The greatest military machine in the history of the universe..."
"What is - the Daleks?"
"No... the Romans!" - Doctor Who: The Pandorica Opens
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#11
Quote:From what I can tell, they had something sort of like pasta, although it was fried, not cooked in water. It was just a paste of wheat flour and water fried in oil, sometimes interpreted as pasta but very unlike what we are familiar with.

~Aurelia

that description reminds me of the stuff the the bald guy( i forget which bald guy or what the guy's name was, throw me a bone i watched it in manderin) in croutching tiger hidden dragon was making, he just took this lump of dough and a knife and just started sliceing it and it flew a bit into a wok of oil.
Brent Grolla

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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#12
I recently watched a documentary about the Romans, and they mentioned that they found rice. I thought that rice, pasta, etc... was unknown to the Romans?
After thinking about it, it made since. We know that the Romans traded with the east for spices, silk, etc.. and with the large deposits of Roman coins found there. Rice can be found all over the orient so why wouldn't it be found in Rome as well?
Joshua B. Davis

Marius Agorius Donatus Minius Germanicus
Optio Centuriae
Legio VI FFC, Cohors Flavus
[url:vat9d7f9]http://legvi.tripod.com[/url]

"Do or do not do, their is no try!" Yoda
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#13
Quote:I recently watched a documentary about the Romans, and they mentioned that they found rice. I thought that rice, pasta, etc... was unknown to the Romans?
After thinking about it, it made since. We know that the Romans traded with the east for spices, silk, etc.. and with the large deposits of Roman coins found there. Rice can be found all over the orient so why wouldn't it be found in Rome as well?

Rice was known to the Romans and is mentioned in several sources. Anthimus even gives cooking instructions for it in his 6th century 'de observatione ciborum'. I can't quite trace the path of its introduction at this point, but given it was familiar in India, it most likely travelled via the Persian or Parthia empires. HOwever, rice cultivation in Italy most likely dates no earlier than the twelfth or thirteenth centuries, and did not become a major industry until the fourteenth.

Pasta is more complicated because it isn't about a foodtuff but about a preparation technique. we know that the Romansd could have made it - no two ways about it - but we are still struggling to figure out if they did. The big book didn't solve the issue either, BTW.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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#14
So could you use it in a first or second century impression. It is was not cultivated in Italy it would more than likely be a rareity, but could you get away with it?
Joshua B. Davis

Marius Agorius Donatus Minius Germanicus
Optio Centuriae
Legio VI FFC, Cohors Flavus
[url:vat9d7f9]http://legvi.tripod.com[/url]

"Do or do not do, their is no try!" Yoda
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#15
Quote:So could you use it in a first or second century impression. It is was not cultivated in Italy it would more than likely be a rareity, but could you get away with it?

Our understanding of the exact developments is extremely tenuous, so I'd rather limit it to high-class eating. The first evidence for rice cultivation in the Med are 6th/7th century, so a Roman eating rice would have to have gotten it at the very least from Parthia, if not India.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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