satire, freedom, sacrilege, abuse

[Caius Fabius]

One of my Lebanese friends brought up a point or two. One was just covered above, when he sent a translation of the cartoon above, with the word meaning "peace", it makes good sense to me at least......
The other was a comment that he didn't see the Palestinians as really attacking civilians in Israel, unless they targeted children, since most of the "civilians" in Israel were either military, military reserves, para-militaries, or foreigners who materially were supporting the theft of the Palestinians' rights, lands, water and future. Now since Israel has almost universal conscription, ...hmmmm interesting point of view.
He is mildly irritated by the "cartoons" as crude and rude and anti-Islamic, but not moved to violence...... Instead he called upon European cuntries to stop all censorship, including anti-Islamic, anti-Israeli, anti-Nazi and whatever and challenged the European governments to really have a free and open press and complete freedom of speech. Then I got a long list of major publishers of news, and television corporations and a list of their owners where each owner that is 'zionist' by birth or outlook was listed... again, it was interesting....

sometimes it does help to get the view from the other side of the glass, even if it seems distorted.....

[Goffredo]

Western "civilization" is exploring the outerlimits of the Solar system and the structure of matter while the descendants of the once magnificent Islamic civilization lose control over cartoons! It is even worse when we consider that they are most likely manipulated and have no access to any free thought inspite of what any Lebanese may say. When will they have a Renaissance, whatever that may possibly mean without a Giotto, Michelangelo, a Caravaggio? When will they have a Bill of Rights? When will they have a Bastille? When will they have a Newton, a Gauss, an Einstein, a Godel? When will they have a Kant! We have had a Lenin, a Stalin, a Hitler. True but we have survived and some progress has been made. They are spinning their wheels. To paraphrase a line in the movie "Men In Black", they have an huge inferiority complex and a very bad temperment.

I promise to not return to this thread and sign out here. Kick me off if you want.

[Magnus]

I think it's a bit overboard...I dunno...maybe i'm just being a regular Canadian here, and it takes a lot to really tick us off. Our own politicians insult each other like that, if not worse on a weekly basis, especially around election time. I don't recall ever seeing the Conservatives firebombing a Liberal HQ in the past. And believe me, there are fanatical people when it comes to belief in their own political systems that rival an religious organization.

But this type of situation really makes me wonder...would it have been tolerated 60 years ago? 100 years ago? I often wonder how long we're going to have to put up these terrorist organizations before another world war erupts over such incidents.

I just get angry when I read quotes from their religious leaders saying that islam is a religion of peace, yet the only way some of their followers can express their anger is through violence.

Do you guys think though that the islamic religion, muslims and such represent a dirct threat to our way of life here in the West? Do you think that the situation will escalate? Will another 911 happen, but on a bigger scale? I don't see them as being very tolerant of others.

[Virilis]

I think in the end Islam would prevail...

One of the main strenghts of Islam as a religion is that it is a "practising" religion. By that I mean that everyday prayers and complicate rules concerning everyday behaviour is it`s main strength. We westerners will ususally keep the religion isolated from our everyday practices/politics and that has escalated the process of our growing secularism.

I don`t mean that muslim countries will invade us and have any superiority on military terms in the near future. I feel that as a religion and social phenomena Islam is still dynamic, will be growing and we could be surprised how the world looks in fifty years.

Maybe the transition in the balance of the religions will start with some inner crisis within our societies, social, environmental etc.?

Anyway I think (like Arnold Toynbee) that a society without some kind of religious thinking and based on pure reason or democracy is an impossibility and it is very naive to think it to be possible.

We live very interesting times....

[andym]

It all seems a bit odd to me.These cartoons were published in September last year!So why has the Muslim Fundamentalist factions only just started to complain?Interesting?

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

A typo flame?! This really is rather petty.

Come to a discussion with respected historians about Nazi propaganda and then talk about "der Stumner" - it will automatically undermine your arguments, because the people will then wonder, if you actually "did your homework".

It was a TYPO. My crappy keyboard on my home PC is in dire need of replacing - the 'R' key often doesn't work and the 'M' and 'N' keys stick together. Honestly, that piece of nity-picking was feeble the first time, but to persist with it when you've already been told it was a type is really pathetic.

One last thing about the drawing of Sharon & the twin-towers:

Well, it seems I'm not alone in finding that a highly contrived interpretation and seeing a rather more obvious reading of the cartoon. It seems you don't see it that way, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Note that I agree entirely that anti-Semitic cartoons and articles regularly appear in the Arabic press and elsewhere in the Muslim world. But I'm wary of Zionists crying 'Anti-Semite!' if anyone criticises their policies.

[Robert Vermaat]

Before I answer this I should probably tell you I have a degree in Middle Eastern Studies.

The other was a comment that he didn't see the Palestinians as really attacking civilians in Israel, unless they targeted children, since most of the "civilians" in Israel were either military, military reserves, para-militaries, or foreigners who materially were supporting the theft of the Palestinians' rights, lands, water and future. Now since Israel has almost universal conscription, ...hmmmm interesting point of view.

This is also a point which came up lately in the renewed discussions about the 1972 Olympics atrocities, due to Spielberg's latest movie. Apart from the fact that this was a brutal attack on defenceless people which involved torture and murder, there is a point referring to the above statement. I was raised (being 8 at the time) believing this attack was especially gruesome because the Israeli victims were sportsmen, above being civilians. Interestingly, to the Palestinian terrorists, they were not. These men saw them as military, all holding officer's ranks in the army or the reserves. And indeed, I must give them that.

When will they have a Renaissance, whatever that may possibly mean without a Giotto, Michelangelo, a Caravaggio? When will they have a Bill of Rights? When will they have a Bastille? When will they have a Newton, a Gauss, an Einstein, a Godel? When will they have a Kant! We have had a Lenin, a Stalin, a Hitler. True but we have survived and some progress has been made. They are spinning their wheels. To paraphrase a line in the movie "Men In Black", they have an huge inferiority complex and a very bad temperment.

Indeed! The sad thing is, they have had their Einsteins and Michelangelo's, but that was way back, during our Middle Ages. The even more sad thing is that we hardly know anymore about it. They do.

Then what happened? A lot of things, but one of the more important ones was that the Mongols arrived and torched just about anything that was cultural and inclined to liberal. After that, it was never the same. No more arts and freedoms with religion. Under the Mamluks, Egypt and the Middle East floundered and stagnated. One of their most important measures was to destroy all ports along the Mediterranean coast that the could not defend, to prevent another Crusade. It worked, but look at the poverty it generated. After that the Ottoman Turks took over, not bothering with religion too much but also stifling free thought and technical development.

One big developing change that they missed is liberalism and individualism, two stages that stand at the basis of modern Western society. For never forget that we share a history of religious intolerance with any civilization in the world. But we outgrew it (I hope). Middle East peoples/culture (not just Islam) never knew the rights of the individual which we dveloped.

The inferiority complex, though, is a huge one - they see what they had and know what they are now. Never underestimate that, it figures big in the minds of most Muslims, despite their nationality. From the 1950 they tried everything - Nationalism, Socialism, Pan-Arabism. Now it's time for Islamism and that's what gives us our current problems.

But this type of situation really makes me wonder...would it have been tolerated 60 years ago? 100 years ago? I often wonder how long we're going to have to put up these terrorist organizations before another world war erupts over such incidents.

Yes and no. A 100 years ago we occupied most of their lands and were busy shooting down any 'fuzzie-wuzzie' that dared raise its ugly head. Heard of Gordon in Khartoum? Now THAT were fanatics - the Mahdists! France and Spain were busy conquering North Africa, Britain had Egypt and went south. By 1918, we had the whole Middle East covered. Iran remembers very clearly how it was partitioned between Britain, The USA and the Soviet Union after WW2 - ever heard about that?

Yet strangely we did torelate the PLO in the 1970s. It seems very strange to me, hearing all the big talk of today about terrorism and global treats, blah blah - when it has been around for decades!!

I just get angry when I read quotes from their religious leaders saying that islam is a religion of peace, yet the only way some of their followers can express their anger is through violence.

If you want my advice, don't get angry and listen to those who disassociate themselves. Like I said in an earlier post, every religion has fanatics who will tell you their god told them (persobnally if need be) to kill so-and-so, because they that or said something. Yet their religion is not violent at all. They're the crazed ones, and the large majority of normal ones suffer for it. Because if we contune to lump all of them together (which we do on a daily basis), acting like they ARE all the same and insisting day after day of themoderates that they apologise, then the moderates will stop being moderates. I'll tell you this will happen, it's a thing that's happened before throughout history.

Do you guys think though that the islamic religion, muslims and such represent a dirct threat to our way of life here in the West? Do you think that the situation will escalate? Will another 911 happen, but on a bigger scale? I don't see them as being very tolerant of others.

No, I don't. maybe we'll all become Muslims in a 100 years, I don't know. maybe we'll all speak Chinese first. That the way of things, they tend to change over the centuries. Nothing lasts forever.
Muslims intolerant? During the 7th or 8th century, they were far more tolerant than Christians. Depends on who you talk to these days. Osama would probably not be the best example..

We live very interesting times....

Wasn't that a Chinese curse? :?

It all seems a bit odd to me.These cartoons were published in September last year!So why has the Muslim Fundamentalist factions only just started to complain?Interesting?

It's not just religious protest.
I'm convinced that most riots are engineered.

[Tarbicus]

Western "civilization" is exploring the outerlimits of the Solar system and the structure of matter while the descendants of the once magnificent Islamic civilization lose control over cartoons! It is even worse when we consider that they are most likely manipulated and have no access to any free thought inspite of what any Lebanese may say. When will they have a Renaissance, whatever that may possibly mean without a Giotto, Michelangelo, a Caravaggio? When will they have a Bill of Rights? When will they have a Bastille? When will they have a Newton, a Gauss, an Einstein, a Godel? When will they have a Kant! We have had a Lenin, a Stalin, a Hitler. True but we have survived and some progress has been made. They are spinning their wheels. To paraphrase a line in the movie "Men In Black", they have an huge inferiority complex and a very bad temperment.

I promise to not return to this thread and sign out here. Kick me off if you want.

ages/http://images-jp.amazon.com/imP/B0009OAUBQ.09.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Arthes]

Greetings,
I don't know if this has been covered, so aplogies if it has,
Islam seems to have it's roots in Christianity...The Prophet Mohammed received his messages from the Angel Gabriel...the God who sent him was the same as the Christian God as far as I can work out.
Islam includes such people as Moses, Joseph and others classed as 'Christian' as their 'messengers' I was surprised to discover this....
So, I think we are looking at two branches of the same basic faith which parted somewhere along the line.
I am not a Christian so this does not have any bearing on my beliefs, but I think it is time that people started trying to understand others a little more and stopped killing and maiming and comitting acts of terrorism in the name of their various Gods or religions.
This comes from a Heathen...!
Peace to all....
regards
Arthes

[Tarbicus]

Western "civilization" is exploring the outerlimits of the Solar system and the structure of matter while the descendants of the once magnificent Islamic civilization lose control over cartoons!

Hmm.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
www.home-school.com/groups/GA.html
www.christianhomeschoolers.com/christian_creation_science.html

So much for them ignorant middle-easterners eh.

And by the way, we may have sent man to the moon a long time ago, but we don't seem to be able to send man to the outer edges of the atmosphere anymore without the transport blowing up. Just to draw a far more disturbing parallel to the past glories meaning jack-s**t today argument.

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

Islam seems to have it's roots in Christianity...The Prophet Mohammed received his messages from the Angel Gabriel...the God who sent him was the same as the Christian God as far as I can work out.

Muhammed and early Islam were influenced by both Christianity and Judaism. Both Islam and Christianity worship the same deity as the Jews and acknowledge the special revelation by that god to the Jewish people as a precusor to their own faiths.

Islam includes such people as Moses, Joseph and others classed as 'Christian' as their 'messengers' I was surprised to discover this....

Those guys are only 'Christian' in that they are Jewish religious figures and Christianity acknowledges God's revelation to the Jewish people just as Islam does.

So, I think we are looking at two branches of the same basic faith which parted somewhere along the line.

No, but they are two faiths which both look back to the Jewish tradition. Islam was also influenced by Christianity, but to a much lesser extent. They were never the 'same basic faith' however.

I am not a Christian so this does not have any bearing on my beliefs, but I think it is time that people started trying to understand others a little more and stopped killing and maiming and comitting acts of terrorism in the name of their various Gods or religions.

Amen.

[Marcus F.]

there's a surprising detail about the background of this madness:
http://www.neandernews.com/?cat=6

[Theodosius the Great]

Western "civilization" is exploring the outerlimits of the Solar system and the structure of matter while the descendants of the once magnificent Islamic civilization lose control over cartoons!

Hmm.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
www.home-school.com/groups/GA.html
www.christianhomeschoolers.com/christian_creation_science.html

So much for them ignorant middle-easterners eh.

Geez, someone has a high opinion about the school system. I guess these two recent articles went simply unnoticed :

[url2lmdvab]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2028167,00.html[/url]

[url2lmdvab]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4647766.stm[/url]

BTW, homeschooling is the wave of the future because of technology. Why go to a school when an getting a decent education can be done online and in the home ?

The sad thing is, they have had their Einsteins and Michelangelo's, but that was way back, during our Middle Ages. The even more sad thing is that we hardly know anymore about it. They do.

What have Muslims ever invented that they can call their own that wasn't based on Greek science and medicine ?

Their "culture" is merely a blend of Persian and Hellenism.

As for the renounded medieval Muslim tolerance : It shocks me that people who study history are impressed by this. Alexander and the Romans were tolerant for the similar reasons. It's easier to rule by not disrupting the social fabric of a conquered people. But more than that, they wanted to tax the hell out of their INFIDEL subjects (as living under the Sharia specifies). Bearing the tax was so unbearable that many converted to Islam to escape it. There's nothing more glamorous to Muslim "tolerance" than that.

I think in the end Islam would prevail...

I too get pesemistic, at least when it comes to Europe. Unless there are major internal trend changes (AND SOON !), the continent is basically lost as of now. And the only ones I feel sorry for are today's children .

One of the main strenghts of Islam as a religion is that it is a "practising" religion. By that I mean that everyday prayers and complicate rules concerning everyday behaviour is it`s main strength.

Bingo !

We westerners will ususally keep the religion isolated from our everyday practices/politics and that has escalated the process of our growing secularism.

Or worse. Like holding religion in contempt.

I don`t mean that muslim countries will invade us and have any superiority on military terms in the near future

They don't have to. Europe's demographic time-bomb will see to that. If the native European people's refuse to procreate (and that means more than two kids!) their immigrant populations will inheret everything.

This is what "the meek shall inheret the Earth" means (for those of you who don't pop open a Bible every now and then)

[Carlton Bach]

The sad thing is, they have had their Einsteins and Michelangelo's, but that was way back, during our Middle Ages. The even more sad thing is that we hardly know anymore about it. They do.

What have Muslims ever invented that they can call their own that wasn't based on Greek science and medicine ?

Their "culture" is merely a blend of Persian and Hellenism.

What di the vaunted 'Western' civilidsation ever invent that wasn't based on Greek and Roman advances? What did the Greco-Romans ever come up with that wasn't 'based' on the Near Eastern Neolithic? What did the entire world ever do that wasn't 'based' on Africa's paleolithic breakthroughs?

If you follow this line of argument long enough, you can invalidate pretty much all human civilisation as mere tinkering improvers. The advances of Islamic civilisation were considerable, including such things as optics, algebra, integrated humoral pathology, systematic empirical clinical study, a host of small medical advances, almost all of what we today consider 'typical Mediterranean agriculture', bills of exchange, cheques, and money orders, horizontal-loom automated pattern weaving, alcoholic and essential oil distillation, considerable advances in astronomy, and the modern legal concept of charitable foundation (waqf).

It is unfortunate that we tends to read the realities of our own time back into history. The Middle East is relatively underdeveloped today, but that was hardly always true any more than Europe always was important to world history. And with time, we may one day discuss whether the Europeans weren't always the blod-crazed monsters that invaded the homeland of modern civilisation in the days of the infamous King Leopold.

As for the renounded medieval Muslim tolerance : It shocks me that people who study history are impressed by this. Alexander and the Romans were tolerant for the similar reasons. It's easier to rule by not disrupting the social fabric of a conquered people. But more than that, they wanted to tax the hell out of their INFIDEL subjects (as living under the Sharia specifies). Bearing the tax was so unbearable that many converted to Islam to escape it. There's nothing more glamorous to Muslim "tolerance" than that.

There is, actually. We tend to overlook this in our enlightened times, but tolerance does not come easy, and is not a normal state of affairs. The Greco-Roman traditipon was not really very tolerant in religious matters. They didn't have to be because they never had to deal with people who were different (untiul they met the Jews, and we all know how well that went...). Similarly. modern Western civilisation isn't tolerant of diversity, it embraces diversity. It's only tolerance if it applies to things you dislike.

Very few religions of the Abrahamite pattern have ever had an easy time of accepting others. If you remember that under the Maccabees, all deviance from Jewish temple tradition was punishable by death, and that under Roman law from Theodosius onwards, all non-Christian cult (except for Jewish observance) was forbidden under threat of death while non-orthodox Christians could suffer severe secular penalties, you get a better perspective of how unusual the interpretation of the 'dhimma' to include Zoroastrians, Hindus and Druze was. It was not the same thing as modern religious tolerance - far from it - but it was a marked step forward in a world dominated by religious claims to exclusiveness.
The situation of non-Muslims in Muslim lands can never have been pleasant, but it is worth keeping in mind that European Jews routinely sought refuge under Muslim rulers, something they would hardly have done had their life in Chriostian lands been better. as to the situation of Muslims under Christian rulers, none of these communities appear to hae lasted as long as the Coptic or Syriac Christians.
Again, projecting back the modern climate of opprssion, fanaticism and intolerance is not helpful. There were always better or worse times, but under Islam, things were pretty consistently better for most of the pre-modern era.

I don`t mean that muslim countries will invade us and have any superiority on military terms in the near future

They don't have to. Europe's demographic time-bomb will see to that. If the native European people's refuse to procreate (and that means more than two kids!) their immigrant populations will inheret everything.

This is what "the meek shall inheret the Earth" means (for those of you who don't pop open a Bible every now and then)

I'm not sure that this particular quote should be read in a prophetic context. But that aside, you do realise that by any reasonable standard of long-term carrying capacity, Europe is *over*populated, right? Of course, the Middle East is even more overpopulated, but that doesn't make following their example a good idea, necessarily.

[Carlton Bach]

It all seems a bit odd to me.These cartoons were published in September last year!So why has the Muslim Fundamentalist factions only just started to complain?Interesting?

It took them quite some time to generate the spontaneous outrage that underlies theese protests. You know, raising funds, printiong flyers, coordinating their publication throughout the Middle East, launching the media campaign...

Never say they don't learn from the West! This one was positively Rovian.