Primaporta Augustus

[tlclark]

How sure are we that these colours are accurate? Could the pigments have changed or oxidised over the centuries, for instance?

It's not just color change, it's convention. Yellow ochre is usually meant to represent gold, and blue silver, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. I think the blue is meant to be blue, not silver, just from some of the decisions they've made. The 'vault' of the sky behind the personification of the sky is blue and that is almost certainly meant to represent sky. The blue elsewhere seems to be same color.

As far as making the muscle look like flesh, that seems tasteless, but it could certainly be the case.

I wish I knew the methodology of the restorers. Presumably they have evidence for all of this, but I just don't know.

Travis

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The photo is very little and it's impossible to show the colours.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Some thoracatas from Montoro and Cordoba:


http://andaluciajunta.es/img/CDA/59568
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/portal/ ... doba04.jpg
http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/averroes ... os/041.jpg

[tlclark]

Some thoracatas from Montoro and Cordoba:


http://andaluciajunta.es/img/CDA/59568
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/portal/ ... doba04.jpg
http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/averroes ... os/041.jpg

Thanks!!

Travis

[Flavius Promotus]

I know this may be a little off the spot, but among the items unearthed during the excavations in the 'Waffenmagazin' (armory) of Carnuntum were also pieces of dyed leather - cobalt blue and pink.
The pink leather may once have been a brighter red but perhaps paled in time - basically, this is the colour combination of the Primaporta pteryges.

No, I do not want to argue for leather pteruges (I think the fabric theory is right), but obviously items made of dyed leather and/or dyed cloth were really popular (nihil novi sub sole).
There is at least one third century reenactor somewhere with a blue belt and baldric (don't know his name), and some friends of mine have red belts and baldrics.
The Terentius Fresco shows most of the soldiers with brown or black belts and baldrics, but the Tribune wears red ones [although I am not completely sure about this, since the fresco seems to have been heavily restored in some places]



Kitschy and colourful pteryges - why not?

[tlclark]

Great post and excellent picture. Thanks.

A small note...about PINK

The pink leather may once have been a brighter red but perhaps paled in time - basically, this is the colour combination of the Primaporta pteryges.

The array of colors in Greek frescoes is very broad with a preference for pastel blues, pinks and greens, like the Vergina example. These are frescoes, where the pigment is chemically bound to the lime in the plaster, and they were never exposed to the sun or water so the likelihood is that they haven't faded over time. There is similar evidence in Pompeii frescoes.

So....

We can't assume that it wasn't done.

Anyone brave enough to show up in a pink musculata?

With roses?

[Flavius Promotus]

Great post and excellent picture. Thanks.

You are welcome
(the image is from Simon James's Dura-homepage, I hope he does not mind...)

I guess you are right about the pink. The "warrior head" from the 'bunte Goetter'-exhibition sports light green, pink, I also think light blue, etc.
An abomination for modern eyes, but back then they liked it!

The pink leather also reminded me of the parchment cover on the inside of the Dura shield. According to the Dura Final Report VII, the colour of the parchment on the inside may have been pink, although this is disputed. AFAIK there is a theory about paled red, but maybe it was not originally blood red as is the case with most reconstructions, but really pink???

Long story short - if anybody out there (Aitor, Robert) is planning to make or order bright and colourful kitschy leather equipment - do it !

[Flavius Promotus]

And, er...
no I'm not brave enough :oops:

[Crispvs]

I seem to remember that at the 1999 ROMEC, Carol Van Driel-Murray mentioned applicees from shield covers which had been made of pink and yellow dyed leather, which were found at Qasr el Ibrim (I think that was the name anyway - her paper did not find its way into the 2000 edition of JRMES). She said that these were virtually identical to items which had been found on Northern European sites buty unlike the Northern European examples, the colours had not been destroyed by the tannins found in peat. She said that it was entirely possible that shield covers may in fact have been very colourful items, rather than the drab brown items we so carefully make.

Crispvs

[Flavius Promotus]

She said that it was entirely possible that shield covers may in fact have been very colourful items, rather than the drab brown items we so carefully make.

VERY likely! Somé reenactors at least use dyed leather sheets as a basis for the tabula ansata of their tegimentum. This way you get colourful letters. But maybe the tabula ansata was also dyed ?
I'm thinking of blue on red :wink:
And some shield covers had small leather patches in the form of legionary symbols (e.g. a capricorn). I don't see why these patches should not also have been made of dyed leather!
(guess I'll have to upgrade my tegimentum :roll: and add our legion's heraldic animal)

And what about an entirely red or blue tegimentum ?
Would sound weird at first glance, but the Romans weren't after camouflaging...

[tlclark]

And what about an entirely red or blue tegimentum ?

And how about pink? :wink:

Honestly, I think I could get into pastel blue or even pastel green. but pink?

Actually, when I see a lot of colors in frescoes, the color most often used as "red" is not the deep red we see. It is actually more scarlet which has more orange and pink undertones.

But is this a product of what pigments were available to paint with or what pigments were used in textiles? That may not be a compatible group.

Besides most paintings have only a few colors, less than 5, with other colors made by cross-hatching, optical diffusion or other painting methods.

So maybe "pink" and "scarlet" are the colors used in cloaks/armor, etc, OR maybe that's as close as they could get in the paint used.

I'll have to look up the Roger Ling on this.

In general though, I think the impression that most re-enactor troops give, of dark red, white and brown, would seem rather dull and monochromatic to most Romans.

Travis

[Robert Vermaat]

And how about pink? :wink:
Honestly, I think I could get into pastel blue or even pastel green. but pink?
Besides most paintings have only a few colors, less than 5, with other colors made by cross-hatching, optical diffusion or other painting methods.
So maybe "pink" and "scarlet" are the colors used in cloaks/armor, etc, OR maybe that's as close as they could get in the paint used.

Was pink not the colour of some Dura Europos shields? A sort of base paint?

[Flavius Promotus]

Yes and no - there are traces of pink, but it was far from being the regular colour!
The 'Amazon' oval shield, the 'Troy' oval shield and the Dura rectangular (Nr. 629) had a basic painting which was more of a dark red, at least according to the reconstructional paintings.
(today, most of the paint has flaked off )
The 'Warrior God' oval shield was certainly not pink (rather a light green).

Fragment 621 was basically dark green (with traces of yellow, blue, white and scarlet);
Frg. 622 was green, but with a large area of pink (!) and traces of brown and blue;
Frg. 623: "one sees pink overall" [ ]
Frg. 625: traces of pink
Frg. 626: pink on the outside, and black on the inside?
Frg. 628: red and black?

Frg. 631 and 632 (from rectangular shields) show traces of dark red.

So for the Dura shields, pink was possible but not a must have.

[Arthes]

Oooh, I just saw this....
colouring the statues really brings them to life.
It is particularly interesting when traces of the original colours can still be found, as you know that you are seeing a true reconstruction/portrayal....!
regards
Arthes