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The Abandonment of the Gladius for the Spatha - Why?
Quote:Some of the Viking swords are considered big and bulky compared to the samurai sleek sword but if you’re fighting for hours on end against Roman metal helmets, not laminated wood or wicker like the Japanese, then the Viking sword has its advantages. The larger bulky sword can take a lot of punishment, meaning that after you’ve hacked away for hours and the blade isn’t that sharp anymore you can still kill or maim with a good swing, the momentum of the heavy sword packs more of a punch.
....

Two points:

1) Japanese armour was never made out of wood, and as far as I know, not made of wicker either. The predominant armour form in Japan was lamellar, and the lamellae could be made of metal or of rawhide, then lacquered. Plates were used, especially after the Europeans showed up with plate armour and guns; mail was used in small quantities, usually to link metal plates together.

2) The cross section of Japanese swords have been studied and documented (for a few pics, see here: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread ... osssection ) They are not thinner than the cross sections of gladii or Viking swords. For the gladii, see pictures in Bishop and Coulston. Viking swords have fullers, and are even thinner overall than most spathae or gladii.
Felix Wang
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Quote:
Steve Sarak:1w7rhgir Wrote:Some of the Viking swords are considered big and bulky compared to the samurai sleek sword but if you’re fighting for hours on end against Roman metal helmets, not laminated wood or wicker like the Japanese, then the Viking sword has its advantages. The larger bulky sword can take a lot of punishment, meaning that after you’ve hacked away for hours and the blade isn’t that sharp anymore you can still kill or maim with a good swing, the momentum of the heavy sword packs more of a punch.
....

Two points:

1) Japanese armour was never made out of wood, and as far as I know, not made of wicker either. The predominant armour form in Japan was lamellar, and the lamellae could be made of metal or of rawhide, then lacquered. Plates were used, especially after the Europeans showed up with plate armour and guns; mail was used in small quantities, usually to link metal plates together.

2) The cross section of Japanese swords have been studied and documented (for a few pics, see here: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread ... osssection ) They are not thinner than the cross sections of gladii or Viking swords. For the gladii, see pictures in Bishop and Coulston. Viking swords have fullers, and are even thinner overall than most spathae or gladii.

Comparing the Japanese time frame to that of the Romans, say the Republic, I don’t think that lamellar armor had metal in it back then but my interest doesn’t lie with the Japanese so I really don’t know that much about it, I could be wrong? Did it have metal back then, B.C.?

As far as the cross section of a Japanese sword to that of a Viking, I wasn’t aware of that, I stand corrected, thanks.

What I meant by packs more of a punch is that per ounce, the Viking sword is heavier and there by produces more kinetic energy, a hell of a club.
Steve
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the samurais armor was not so much defensive as it was a symbol of status and crafted to inpart that status and identify the samurai on the battlefield, also it was intended to strike fear into the enemy much of the armor designed to resemble devils and demons, i know very little about the armor id be interested in learning more, i didnt think too many advances were made in the samurai's armor after the europeans arrived, i wouldnt think that any improvemnets would even the odds once blackpowder brought its evil to bare on warfare
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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Guys, this is getting a bit OT, is it not?
Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Romans
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Quote:What I meant by packs more of a punch is that per ounce, the Viking sword is heavier and there by produces more kinetic energy, a hell of a club.

Er, no. As I said in my last post: a Viking Age sword was about the same weight as a katana or slightly lighter. A well-balanced one and a half to two pound blade is not much of a club at all.

The first thing many people would say when they picked up a Viking sword at any re-enactment display I've ever attended was 'Wow, that's really light. Weren't they heavier than this?'
Tim ONeill / Thiudareiks Flavius /Thiudareiks Gunthigg

HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
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Quote:
Steve Sarak:d81jypc6 Wrote:What I meant by packs more of a punch is that per ounce, the Viking sword is heavier and there by produces more kinetic energy, a hell of a club.

Er, no. As I said in my last post: a Viking Age sword was about the same weight as a katana or slightly lighter. A well-balanced one and a half to two pound blade is not much of a club at all.

The first thing many people would say when they picked up a Viking sword at any re-enactment display I've ever attended was 'Wow, that's really light. Weren't they heavier than this?'

Once again I stand corrected.

Thanks
Steve
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Quote:The samurai sword after hours of smashing against the metal rim of Roman shields or metal helmets will become blunt, then what?

Not meaning to nitpick your post but you don't use a sword against metal or shields and such. It's designed to cut flesh. It's not like an axe.
Michael Paglia
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But anyway...how about them Romans?
Michael Paglia
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yes how bout them romans,.....how did they fare against the dacians when the falx was indeed destroying scuta in single blows, true true or learned men lie, do you think the advent and application of the falx caused the romans to shift tactics, maybe employ pila differently, more of a melee role maybe, espacialy when cafinga two handed falx, i undestand it resembled more of a pole arm?
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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Is it certain the falx could split a scuta? Sounds a little exagerated to me.
And of it seems to me that the falx-wielding guy would seem would need both hands to do it and a big and powerful wind-up! So how did this guy survive in a battle? No shield against the pila volleys and from other missiles (slings, arrows, ...) and, in close fighting no protection against a gladius (not necessarily from the legionary directly infront of him). His sides were going to be exposed sides when he was winding up to strike with his two handed falx psuedo-katana or what ever. If the falx could concievably split a scutum it was more of lucky hit, a fluke that maybe could be done in a one-on-one duel, but I seriously don't think it was frequent in a battle.
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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well i dont know if it was for certa, im just inquiring, i read it on wikipedia if i remember correctly. just because along curved blade(which has greater cutting power-hence the curve, proper technique applied mind you) has a greater range doesnt mean that there arent techniques used close in, minutia in technique, short subtle movements, not saying this is possible really with the likes of the claymore, ive never seen it atleast, but katana and falx, most definetly, well okay i wont speak for the falx just yet but its more than likely. and as to a lucky blow, ever see what katana forged of moderate skill can do, not that id want to pass my cutting edge through a scuta, ouch!!! as for getting stuck by another legionary, shield or no shield thats just as likely in a melee, hell dacian, thracian, or roman just as likely to get stuck in that regard. i wish i had me a well crafted falx to play with i want to see what she can do, i do know, again fromt the same source, that the dacians used the falx in such a way that the legions made some changes to their armor, seems there was use of a nasty hook and pull tactic, that and the hooked blade as it was was easy to get in around the shields, more so than say a spear or spatha
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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i will say, after giving it some thought, that if the falx proved to be consistantly effective in this manner, i should think more would have been written of it, yes?
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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Quote:yes how bout them romans,.....how did they fare against the dacians when the falx was indeed destroying scuta in single blows,

Yes, you're correct. The Romans were fearful of the falx's ability of cutting through armor and such. However a falx is quite a bit different in composition and function to a katana. The point I was trying to make was that your typical longsword (whether it's a broadsword, katana, spatha) is not made to cut through metal.

@Goffredo

I did see a video online of a reenactor using a falx to split a scutum. The reason I mention it is because I've seen people on other boards use it as scientific proof of the falx's capabilities. In short, I wasn't impressed. The shield was held up by a stiff post. When the reenactor cut into the scutum the falx most certainly when half-way down the shield. However, the fault in this lies in the fact that no human being is representative of an unmovable wooden beam. The legionary's arm holding the scutum would give upon receiving the falx's blow. Not to mention why you would want to get your falx stuck in a scutum only to get cut to shreds yourself.

Of equal importance was that the falx wielding reenactor had god awful form. He tried to put all the might he could into the swing and went completely off balance with one leg flying backwards into the air like a figure skater. If I were a legionary I could only wish to fight a Dacian like him! Big Grin
Michael Paglia
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HA! that is funny....lol, yes close and finsih comes to mind, the enemy sprawled inviting his end, but with good form and the right anfle the cut is not off balance and just as, if not more powerful. the only association i was making between a falx and katana were the fact they share the curved blade and one or two hand variety, the two handed falx im thinking was more like a naginata?, pole arm esque? i dont know. i should like to study up more on the dacians and there weapons, do you think dacian engagements neccessitated the spatha more so or ?
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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Quote:
Steve Sarak:3rxobdkf Wrote:The samurai sword after hours of smashing against the metal rim of Roman shields or metal helmets will become blunt, then what?

Not meaning to nitpick your post but you don't use a sword against metal or shields and such. It's designed to cut flesh. It's not like an axe.

That's my point.
Steve
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