Wearing Phalerae

[Tarbicus]

I think we'll end up differing here no matter what

But its a differnce between brave fighting, especially in situations dont let avoid it, and beeing on the way to just show themselves as targets and individuals.

As far as I'm aware officers and seniors have always been distinguishable on the battlefield, and the removal of obvious high ranking insignia is a mid to late 20th C concept to avoid snipers.

Polybius, 6.22-23. 39, describes that it was ensured that soldiers were conspicuous on the battlefield for their commanders, by wearing animal skins (velites), or crests and feathers (regular legionaries). Ross Cowan seems pretty certain that decorations were worn on the battlefield, as well as at ceremonies. One aspect of that is it takes the argument in a different direction - is the real question to ask whether soldiers wanted to stay inconspicuous to the enemy, or was it more practical for them to be overly conspicuous to their superiors?

[Kate Gilliver]

Here you go, found it at last, and it wasn't Caesar's civil war, it was at Munda as described in the Spanish war (45 BC) :
"When it was observed that our men were giving more ground than was usual, two centurions from Legio V crossed the river [Salsum] and restored the battle line. As they drove the superior numbers back displaying exceptional courage ... one of them succumbed to a heavy volley of missiles discharged from the higher ground. His fellow centurion now began an unequal battle, and when he found himself completely surrounded he retreated but lost his footing. As the brave centurion fell many of the enemy rushed forward to strip him of his decorations ('Caesar', Spanish War, 23)."

That was from Roman Legionary 58 BC - AD 69, by Ross Cowan. It may well be that a different translation could lead to a different conclusion, in which case I'll eat my hat.

You don't have to eat it, but you're not entirely safe from potential digestive problems either. Spanish War mentions the centurion's insignia which can mean several things including, but not only, decorations:
www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3D%2323842
I'm pretty certain the Histories ref is also to [/i]insignia. It could just be referring to stuff like helmet crests but it COULD be stuff like [i]phalerae etc. Oh the joys of working with another language...
But thanks very much for the ref, Jim, which can go in a footnote!

Kate

[Tarbicus]

You don't have to eat it, but you're not entirely safe from potential digestive problems either.

Pepto Bismol in order maybe.

[Tib. Gabinius]

As far as I'm aware officers and seniors have always been distinguishable on the battlefield, and the removal of obvious high ranking insignia is a mid to late 20th C concept to avoid snipers.

Polybius, 6.22-23. 39, describes that it was ensured that soldiers were conspicuous on the battlefield for their commanders, by wearing animal skins (velites), or crests and feathers (regular legionaries). Ross Cowan seems pretty certain that decorations were worn on the battlefield, as well as at ceremonies. One aspect of that is it takes the argument in a different direction - is the real question to ask whether soldiers wanted to stay inconspicuous to the enemy, or was it more practical for them to be overly conspicuous to their superiors?

Its quite hard to discuss in a language you didnt used 6 years and which isnt your native tongue.

I never talked about the rank insignias and its known by me that in the napoleonic wars first time it becomes a rule to kill the officers.

The death of the centurions cant just be caused by their "first line place", what indeed is another discussion as well, as same as it cant just caused by "standing the ground". So, it perhaps wasnt a rule, but they were targets already for those, who wanna kill an important man or wanna help the enemie loosing their leading (and like varus show, without a head romans were to be beaten).

And if you just wanna look for the awards which officers can get, thats no problem. I really can imagine how Caesar looked like, while he was standing at his little top in corona triumphalis, tunica palmata, toga picta and an eagle crowned staff in his hands...


Ok, back to the try to explain what i ment. The romans, in fact, made a big crying for their awards and status, rank and place in society, and even for their families if it was a famous one. We all know about the civilian and military details to show the wealth and richdom, the own might.
But thats the fact! They, espacially the centurions, didnt need to risk their awards in battle and didnt need to risk to get still more enemies in hunting for that stuff instead of the usual guys which wanted to kill the commanders.
The full troop can see their group awards at the signum or show it all in their full name. All around you know your status and know pretty well what you done before.

About the worth and the behaviour to give awards suetonius wrote some interesting words in Aug XXV, 3-4 ( i try to translate i just have it in latin or german): As war honors Augustus much generous chest decoration and chains (right word for jewels around neck?), whose value existed in the gold and silver, lent as wall coronae, which was much more honorable to possess. These it assigned only after earnings and therefore also to the common soldier.

These sentence show us, that the coronae was the real sign of honor, but the "normals" get them not as often as it would be worth to raise the courage of the comrads.


And even if we would come to a point, they would were it in battle, whats up with the soldiers gregalis? How would they get the phalera above the segmentata? And why it isnt shown anywhere? Not at Trajan column, not in Mainz, not at another column? Or why its not shown on military representations like the metopes from Adamklissi (whose guys even didnt wear segmentata, just plumata / squamata or hamata)?
On the tombstones they are shown, proud, with parade equipment. Tell all visitors (and we know that the respect of graves wasnt that big) what this man did in his live. But neither on Adamklissi nor in Orange i can see any detail of award at a man.

And like Kate said, your sources arent evidence for the use in battle of awards.
The best was Tacitus, but as i wrote it know he wrote following before this sentence:
"Vitellius itself, caming from the milvian bridge on a splended horse, in the dress of an imperator and a sword at his side, the people and senators before itself let float, but took the advice of his friends not to march in the city like it would be captured, so he dressed himself in the purpurn toga."
After this and before your sentence of him he described the march of the legions and alae, cohortes and explorates. So this wasnt a battle dress they worn, it was a kind of triumphatical uniform. Not to compare.
The march ended by honoring the his mother with the titel Augusta...

And know what? While i march regulary or fight, i m thankfull also about every pennyweight i dont have to carry and put it to my equipment or perhaps, and thatsquite a real idea of me, to the treasure, managed by the signifer (we dont need to discuss that, i dont have any evidence for that).

And my last words to this interesting discussion are: also today and in past times, the most armies didnt shown the awards on combat dress, and mostly they did or do, its in a "practical" way.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

As far as I'm aware officers and seniors have always been distinguishable on the battlefield, and the removal of obvious high ranking insignia is a mid to late 20th C concept to avoid snipers.

actually I think that is more for you european types. over here n the U.S. our officers have been hiding, or not wearing their insignia on and off for different reasons since the seminole wars.

that said, we shouldn't at all equate this with anything more modern than early middle ages, there were no customs against killing officers (AFAIK) in roman times, but there wasn't the idea of camoflage either, I am almost 90% sure in my diminutive intellect that it was a matter of preferance.
I also think we make the mistake of assuming soldiers, centurion or otherwise, would have seen enough combat to earn the decorations often.
I am almsost as sure that there were centurions in some units that just weren't awarded any decorations, and the unit wasn't awarded any either, and therefore wore none.

[Tarbicus]

Sorry all, I'm becoming a bit of a 'Lendon-ite', being partway through Soldiers and Ghosts.

If you accept his words as being sound, I can see good reason for a soldier and a unit to sport their awards in battle.

The individual can be more easily recognised in battle, which would be the desired effect when displaying virtus in battle. Recognition for extreme bravery could lead to even more awards and even promotion, and wearing individual awards would make that soldier stand out in the crowd and be remembered.

With the unit, it made the signum more valuable, and therefore worth more in fighting for. If an officer or the standard bearer were to despair of how poorly his unit were fighting and decided to throw it into the enemy ranks (which did happen) it would make its retrieval more pressing and urgent, as the main sign of the unit's bravery would be lost. The same would go for if the signum were lost through the unit being routed or overrun.

[Primitivus]

Very interesting discussion here. I'm wondering where you purchase your phalerae? Although I don't reenact, I am interested in purchasing some for my library. I have a number of genuine (modestly priced) artifacts, but since I am particularly interested in the Roman military... and uniquely intrigued by their military decorations... I am quite curious about locating a source for phalerae. Thanks.

[arklore70]

This is beginning to feel like the great "Tunic Color" debate

Been interesting reading so far.

Cheers!!

Mike

[Peroni]

Magnus said.

sculptoral evidence seems to indicate that such a harness was only worn with maille.

there is also a gravestone of a centurion depicting his panoply which is scale. I will try to find a photo of it.

Primitivus,

You can buy phalerae from Terry Nix at Niximperial creations in Texas, or alternatively I would highly recommend Erik Konig in Germany.
http://www.replik-online.de

He does a beautiful set of the Lauersfort phalerae.

Regards,

[tlclark]

Tarbicus:

Just speaking for the cowards here...

Fate and Posterity; When you're dead you're dead. What better than to go down in a memorable blaze of glory, bristling with shiny awards that would be remembered by all comrades for them to tell of.

Hmm, maybe be a swine herd, or a leper, or a fat tribune in exile? I can think of a thousand better outcomes than "dying in glory".

Kate, it's not just Livy who remarks on the bravery (or foolhardiness) of Romans in battle. Josephus makes special mention of many individuals that distinguished themselves in battle. Specifically, both Sabinus and Julian, average joe schmoes from the legions, fought singular battles and died heroically. This is a lifelong Roman trait.

Whether it's virtue or insanity depends on your point of view.

Travis

[Peroni]

Quote:
sculptoral evidence seems to indicate that such a harness was only worn with maille.

I replied;

there is also a gravestone of a centurion depicting his panoply which is scale. I will try to find a photo of it.

Here's the one.. From the grave stele of Titus Calidius Severus (Legio XV Apollinaris) from Carnuntum



And another from the grave stele of Quintus Sertorius Festus (Legio XI Claudia Pia Fidelis) (Verona museum)



http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Regards,

[Praefectusclassis]

Adrian, it looks like I really need to teach you how to use the imagebase, don't I? :wink:

Festus
Calidius

[Peroni]

Jasper,

Each time I try to get the image i am looking for, the link isn't there!

I have difficulty with the imagebase!

Regards,

[Praefectusclassis]

I know that many of the records in the imagebase are still without their images. The conversion to the new system was almost automatic, apart from the images. They have to be connected to the right records by hand. At 240*on average 3 images, that takes awhile.