Help reconstructing a 5th-6th C. scutum

[tlclark]

I have inherited about 200 feet of 1 1/2" thick seasoned red oak planks, salvaged from a downed tree.

I know that there's a planked scuta in there somewhere, just trying to determine the right way to go about this.

I want to create an accurate planked shield for the 5th-6th C. AD.

I have the links to fectio's excellent article but I have a few questions.

1.) Most re-enactors have flat ovals, yet most of the evidence I'm seeing in representational evidence suggests that convex dished shields are more common. What are the hassles/arguments etc that would attend/impact each?

A flat planked shield is a relatively simple affair, but a dished shield involves tapered planks, like the coopering on a barrel, if I have figured this correctly. How much harder is this?

2.) Are there any features about a 5th-6th C. shield that would distinguish it from 4th C. scuta?

Also, does anyone have any resources on cheap linen and hide glue in the US?

Thanks for any tips/advice or any "For the love of G*D don't do this!!"

I have all the tools, table saw, etc, but I am going to try and do as much of the work with hand tools as possible. Am I crazy?

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Hi Travis,
Yes, you're crazy, I'm afraid, but not necessarily more than any of us... :wink:
The only surviving (only to some extent) late Roman shields are from the 6th century and were found in Egypt but they are now kept at Trier. Only parts of the painted leather facings of fourth shields survive. You can see them published at the end M. Junkelmann's 'Reiter wie Statuen aus Erz', in a short paper uncongruously (but Thanks to the Gods) added there by Klaus-Peter Goethert: 'Neue römische Prunkschilde'. A must-read for late shields.
Though Robert and others disagree, I think that the typical late (Fourth onwards) shield was round and dished. The apparently oval depictions were very probably 'three-quarters' views.
I have thought abiut the coopering in a barrel but much thinner for a shield. Unfortunately, I haven't got the skills to fight against the wood...

Aitor

[tlclark]

The only surviving (only to some extent) late Roman shields are from the 6th century and were found in Egypt but they are now kept at Trier. Only parts of the painted leather facings of fourth shields survive. You can see them published at the end M. Junkelmann's 'Reiter wie Statuen aus Erz', in a short paper uncongruously (but Thanks to the Gods) added there by Klaus-Peter Goethert: 'Neue römische Prunkschilde'. A must-read for late shields.

Thanks for the references. Does Stephenson cover it in his book?

Are there any images online?

Though Robert and others disagree, I think that the typical late (Fourth onwards) shield was round and dished. The apparently oval depictions were very probably 'three-quarters' views.

Yes, the problem is of course that art moves from a realistic to a stylistic vein at exactly the time we are talking about, so that makes it really ambiguous. I am fairly certain that the Ravenna reliefs show oval shields, but other cases I agree with you, we are probably looking at round shields in 3/4. The stilicho diptych clearly shows a dished shield though. A dished shield is also much stronger.

Tapering the planks on their edges to make a dished shield is looking REALLY hard however.

BTW - My sister-in-law came by at Christmas with her table top tapestry loom. Basically it's really simple. I bet I could build one in about an hour. EASY.

Threading the warp? Not bad.

Weaving double cloth weft face tapestry? HARD.

She only sorta talked me through it and it looked impossible. So now I have to convince her to do a tablion for me.

[FAVENTIANVS]

[tlclark]

Wow.

When you post something that neat and then don't tell me how you did it that's called a 'tease'.

Or is this just an ad for Armillum? :wink:

[FAVENTIANVS]

Yes, it was made by Octavianus' armillum.

4th-5th century septimani seniores scutum device (Notitia Dignitatum).

[Theodosius the Great]

Here's mine made by Jean Olivier from France.

[tlclark]

Yes, it was made by Octavianus' armillum.

4th-5th century septimani seniores scutum device (Notitia Dignitatum).

Cool. But if I have the free lumber I hope to do it myself.

Any tips?

[tlclark]

Here's mine made by Jean Olivier from France.

Theodosius,

nice shield.

Do you mind some pestering questions?

Is that planks or plywood?

How deep is the convex section? If you laid it flat on the floor for example, how high would it be? How wide and tall is it?

Is it two layers or three? What's the wood type and how thick are the planks?

What is the thickness of the shield at the center? and near the edges?

How much did this one cost you?

How is it covered? Linen? Is it milk or encaustic or something else?

If you can see the planks (assuming it is planks) how wide are the individual planks near the center and how wide are they near the edges? I'm trying get a sense of how to make the planks taper.

Travis

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Travis,

No, I don't mind at all

I can only answer a few questions though....

The shield measures 42.5" tall by 35" wide

Yes, they are planks and each plank measures 2 inches wide

While laying flat on the ground, it rises about 2 to 2.5 inches (hard to say) not including the boss

It is faced with linen

Shield thickness at the edge is about 3/4" and I think that is consistent with the rest of the shield's thickness

It was very costly - over $500 and there's the shipping costs from Europe :wink:

Hope that helps a little

I can take some detailed pics if you like.

[Robert Vermaat]

Though Robert and others disagree, I think that the typical late (Fourth onwards) shield was round and dished. The apparently oval depictions were very probably 'three-quarters' views.

Yes, the problem is of course that art moves from a realistic to a stylistic vein at exactly the time we are talking about, so that makes it really ambiguous. I am fairly certain that the Ravenna reliefs show oval shields, but other cases I agree with you, we are probably looking at round shields in 3/4. The stilicho diptych clearly shows a dished shield though. A dished shield is also much stronger.

Aitor wasn't totally clear about my position, because I would never claim that Late Roman shields were not dished, I see how you could be mistaken in thinking so.

On the whole, I think that both dished and flat shields existed, based on the conditions under which they were constructed. In ideal circumstances, I think dished shields were made. But under stress, with lack of time and limited resources, I bet flat shields were made. They're less strong but so much faster to make.

About round or oval, I think both forms occurred. Apart from the lack of real remains, the picture from artistic depictions is not 100% clear. If we can trust the artists to have made realistic representations, both oval as well as round can be seen. The Ravenna mosaics are a good example, Lepontius' gravestone another, the Valentinian dish a third. I look at the position of the feet and the markings on the shield to determine if we can look at tyhis as a 3/4 or a frontal view.

These oval shields are sometimes almost round, and it remains for us to guess if this is a trick of the mind or not. But since the 3rd c. Dura Europos shields were also almost round (but still oval), I go for the explanation that these shields are oval. The Via Maria shield is a definate oval, which is impossible to be taken for a 3/4 view due to the markings. that or the artist did a very bad job with perspective.

I can see any reason why during this period all shields would have to have been round. Was there any period when all the shields in a certain cultural region were stricktly made in one form only?

Anyway, I think there is much we still don't understand about Late Roman shields. thake Vegetius' claim that a few javelins would have be held in the left hand. Well, with a dished shield that's just not possible. However, it would be with a dished shield and a perifiral grip (is that the term?) instead of a central grip, which wee encounter on Contantine's arch. Or with a flat shield. But then, to my knowledge no Late Roman images exist of soldiers carrying javelins in their shield hand. Or plumbatae, grrr... :evil:

[tlclark]

On the whole, I think that both dished and flat shields existed, based on the conditions under which they were constructed. In ideal circumstances, I think dished shields were made. But under stress, with lack of time and limited resources, I bet flat shields were made. They're less strong but so much faster to make.

That makes a great deal of sense. So that means the choice is up to me. From the perspective of a re-enactor, which would you recommend I try?

About round or oval, I think both forms occurred. Apart from the lack of real remains, the picture from artistic depictions is not 100% clear. If we can trust the artists to have made realistic representations, both oval as well as round can be seen. The Ravenna mosaics are a good example, Lepontius' gravestone another, the Valentinian dish a third. I look at the position of the feet and the markings on the shield to determine if we can look at tyhis as a 3/4 or a frontal view.

Yeah I agree. The Ravenna mosaics have an even edging/decorative band all the way around. A round shield in a 3/4 view would obscure the decorative bands or edging on the far side. I think you can see this clearly in some depictions. There is no way to tell however if the stilicho shield is round or oval.

The Via Maria shield is a definate oval, which is impossible to be taken for a 3/4 view due to the markings. that or the artist did a very bad job with perspective.

In general I agree, but as an art historian I have to add a qualifier to this last statement. "Bad" is a relative thing. The perspective of the column base of Antoninus Pius violates all kinds of rules of perspective, yet it was clearly done by an accomplished artist. It all depends on what they were trying to show. We can never know for sure, but in general the late styles are more concerned with content, rather than realism.

(DARN!)

[tlclark]

Theodosius.

Thanks for the images of the scuta!!

Gosh, if the planks are tapered, they sure aren't tapered much.

I'm beginning to think I can do this.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Yes, it was made by Octavianus' armillum.

4th-5th century septimani seniores scutum device (Notitia Dignitatum).

Cool. But if I have the free lumber I hope to do it myself.

Any tips?

When you make it yourself you'll enjoy it double! It's worth doing it.
Good luck! And post some pics of it!

[aitor iriarte]

Hi Travis,
Sorry for the delay but I've been a little bit hooked on WWII lately... :roll:
I don't know if Ian Stephenson includes it (Junkelmann's book, I guess?) in his (cavalry or infantry?) book but I think that it doesn't matter much anything that the has published...
I haven't found on-line images of the Trier shields but, if I were you, I'd try to get Junkelmann's book. It is a rather thin one, full of colour pics on reconstructed Roman Imperial cavalry equipment. Usually, it takes very long for German books to get out of print! :wink:

Aitor