Moderators, please note: Macedonia

[hoplite14gr]

Greeks have an almost irresistible urge to political strife and civil war.
They also make crude jokes amongst them and even to the poin t of questioning the "Greekness" of everybody outside their neighborhood.
That adds greatly to the trouble of interpretation.
Its impossible to say that a Greek clan has not stained its hands on the blood of other Greeks. Sad but true.
Only the Irish pssibly can match us in apetite for civil war.
Slavs indigenous in Balkans.....hmmm....not likely.

Kind regsards

[Jona Lendering]

Folks, I posted a rather long message on language and religion here to reply to the remarks of Arthes, but something must have gone wrong as I don't see it back. Anyhow, this part of the article is now almost ready and a linguist will read it before I publish it. After this, I can move to less debated subjects, such as the rise of Macedonia, the rule of Philip and Alexander, the Roman age, and so on.

I am looking for three days of quiet work, so I guess it will be done on 1 January.

Boys and girls: it is a pleasure to be here; this website was for me the discovery of 2005. I hope to see you all again in 2006, and I wish you everything that is good and healthy for the next year.

[hoplite14gr]

Jona consernif you request with the Olympic athlets foolow the link:
http://www.hoa.gr/eng/ancient.htm
There are some more books in english but I do not own them.
There is also a plaque in Olympia with the territories
Kind regards

[Arahne]

Jona maybe these articles are interesting for You
Papazoglu, Fanula : Le langage macédonien antique --- JslF, 56/3-4, 2000, 771-777
Papazoglu, Fanula : Politički i socijalni sadržaj imena Μακεδών i Μακεδόνες u predhelenističkoj i helenističkoj Makedoniji (Transl: The political and social content of the names Μακεδών and Μακεδόνες in pre-hellenistic and hellenistic Macedonia) --- ŽAnt, 48/1-2, 1998, 25-41 | Fr. ab.
And her thesis - Macedonian towns during Roman period, as well as
http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/t ... 1ce72.html

Stefane, my english is obviously poor. I wanted to make comparation with these pseudo theories about serbian origin in limigentes, shqiptar in Ilirs etc.

I forgot to add this link
http://www.antibaro.gr/national/Templar.pdf

[Jona Lendering]

Dear friends - and friends your are with all your kind comments,

Here is the text of my piece on the language. I will now proceed with ethnogenesis, but first I'm off to the pub. Best wishes for the new year!!

At first sight, it appears that the inhabitants of the Macedonian alluvial plain spoke Greek. An old inscription from Pella, a curse tablet published in 1994, is written in Northwest-Greek, and later inscriptions are in Attic Greek. Many personal names (like Philippos and Alexandros, Zeus and Herakles) are Greek as well. That the Macedonians spoke Greek, looks an inevitable conclusion.

However, it must be admitted that there is room for doubt. In the first place, there are also Macedonian names that have no Greek parallel (Arridaeus or Sabattaras). In the second place, there can be a difference between the spoken language and the written language. It would not be without parallel that a decent Macedonian, when he wanted to write an official text, preferred Greek instead of his native tongue. In the third place, almost all our sources are written in Greek, and it was a common practice in the Greek world to hellenize foreign names. For example, the name of the powerful first king of the Persian empire, Kuruš, ought to be transcribed as Kourous or Kourouz in Greek, but became Kyros, because this looks like a Greek word ("Mr. Almighty"). The name that is rendered as Alexandros, which has a perfect Greek etymology, may in fact represent something like Alaxandus, which is not Greek. A final point that forces us to hesitate is that the Greeks were accustomed to convert the names of foreign deities. The Babylonian god Marduk is always called "Zeus". The fact that Greek sources use Greek names for Macedonian people and gods does not prove very much about the Macedonian language.

None of this really forces us to say that the Macedonians did not speak Greek, but it suggests that things were not what they seem. This is why linguists take several remarks, which they might otherwise have interpreted as indications for a mere difference in dialect, very serious. There is evidence that Greeks were unable to understand people who were makedonizein, "speaking Macedonian". For example, there is an anecdote that the Macedonian king Alexander the Great was not understood by the Greeks when he shouted an order in his native tongue. The Greek orators Thrasymachus of Chalcedon and Demosthenes of Athens called Macedonian kings like Archelaus and Philip II barbarians, which prima facie means that they did not speak Greek. Now this happens in polemical contexts and is certainly exaggerated, but the statements need to refer to some kind of linguistic reality.

Modern classicists have collected about 150 words that were once recognized as Macedonian, many of which are derived from a Macedonian-to-Greek dictionary by a man named Amerias. A study of these 150 words shows that there are two groups:

• Words that have a counterpart in Greek. For example, the Macedonian title Nikatôr ("victor") is obviously the equivalent of Greek Nikêtêr. Usually, the Macedonian words are voiced and lack aspiration whereas Greek words are voiceless and aspired: for example, aithêr becomes adê ("sky").
  Words that do not resemble a Greek word: sarissa ("lance"), abagna ("rose"), peliganes ("senate"). It is certain that these words are Indo-European.

Linguists have attempted to establish connections between the non-Greek words with other Indo-European languages, but this is difficult. For example, abroutes, ("eyebrows") looks like Avestan bruuat.biiam, but if the /t/ in abroutes is a writing error and should be read as a /w/ (digamma), the parallel is closer with Greek ophrues. Scholars have been thinking about influence from Thracian or Illyrian, but these languages are poorly understood too.

The fact that Macedonian words with Greek parallels are voiced and not aspired suggests a connection with Phrygian, Armenian, and Indo-Iranian (or "Aryan"), which share these characteristics. A hypothesis that can at the moment not be falsified is that all these languages once belonged to one group (called Aryo-Graeco-Armenian) with a common vocabulary, that Greek branched off, that the remainder lost aspiration and gained voice, that Macedonian also branched off, and that the people who spoke Macedonian accepted Illyrian loan words once they had settled in the Balkans.



Much is still uncertain, but two first conclusions appear to be irrefutable:

• the Macedonians did not speak a Slavic language, which belongs to an altogether different branch of Indo-European, called Balto-Slavo-Germanic;
  Macedonian and Greek were related but different languages.

It is also certain that the Macedonian language became increasingly hellenized. There is strong evidence for the pronunciation of Macedonian in the second half of the fourth century: the cuneiform texts from Babylon. If Macedonian was unaspired after Alexander the Great had conquered the Persian Empire, we should have expected the name of the king's brother, called Philippos in Greek sources, to be rendered by the Babylonian scribes as Bi-lip+ending. However, it is Pi-lip+ending, which suggests that the Macedonians had began to aspire their consonants. The name Berenike (the Macedonian equivalent of Greek Pherenike) may also have been pronounced according to the Greek fashion, because it is rendered in Latin as Veronica.

[hoplite14gr]

Jona hope you found my message useful.
Arachne dont be sory my english are poor too.

Jona makes a a coment on the Greek dialects interpretation.
To give you an example of the difficulty:
Doreans and Ionians when speaking of an army or gleet section said
MOIRA pronouched MIRA. Yet the Spartans (doric speakers) called their battalions MORA plural MORAE. Actualy this is MOIRA=section in Archaic Aeolian spocen by the Myceneans.
There are geograficaly isolated populations who spoke archaic dialects up to the Hellenistic era.
Also still there is a heated debate about FRYGIANS (FVRIGES-VRIGES-VRIGOI). Well the FV sound exist in linear ideograms.

Put also the event of WW2 into account and try to make a debate about the origins of the root "ARIAN ARYAN" and there you will see people loosing their head over the A-word.

Kind regards

[Jona Lendering]

I've received the message; and I carefully read what's here; and now I'm going to celebrate the end of my personal annus horribilis, 2005.

[Jona Lendering]

Okay, friends, the deed is done: four pages on Macedonia, to be found on [url:2q2250ea]http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/macedonia/macedonia.html[/url].

I must confess that I found it a difficult piece to write; still, my aim is to create a complete encyclopedia of ancient history, and Macedonia can, of course, not remain uncovered.

What I find difficult is understanding the vehemence of the arguments of ultranationalists in Greece and the FYROM. Although I believe that the study of ancient history helps us to better understand certain aspects of the present, I find it very hard to sympathize with modern politicians who base their policy on ancient history. On the other hand, I do realize that this is an easy point of view - my country has no disputed boundaries, whereas the frontier north of Thessaloniki is comparatively young and has been subject to dispute during the Greek civil war and after the collapse of Yugoslavia.

I have tried to offer a fair judgment of the evidence. As far as language is concerned, I think that ultimately, we can not know what language the Macedonians spoke, although we can be certain that it was not related to a modern Slavic language. Its relation to Greek is much closer; Macedonian shared a substantial part of its vocabulary with Greek. Yet, there are also differences, especially regarding the pronunciation, which suggest that the difference is bigger than merely a difference of dialect. Two linguists are currently checking this part.

As to the question whether the Macedonians were recognized by the Greeks, this focuses on the Olympic games. I have checked the full list of victors, and the answer is simple: only the victories of king Alexander I and king Philip II are certain; a late source also mentions king Archelaus. The first Macedonian commoners to win at Olympia were during the reign of Alexander III the Great. As I see it, the Greeks recognized the Macedonian kings as Greeks, but were divided about the Macedonian populace. During the reign of Alexander, the concept of Hellenism changed and Macedonians became acceptable.

If modern Greece claims Alexander as one of its national heroes, I think this is essentially correct, and I think Alexander would not have objected.

I think that no one will be 100% happy with my article, but so be it.

Several of you have offered serious advise; thanks. The article is online now, but I have not yet announced it. If someone knows an improvement, just drop a note. I will announce this piece on 7 January or so. (As always, native speakers of the English language are welcome to improve my English.)

[hoplite14gr]

Please allow me a comment:

1. Words that have a counterpart in Greek. For example, the Macedonian title Nikatôr ("victor") is obviously the equivalent of Greek Nikêtêr. Usually, the Macedonian words are voiced and lack aspiration whereas Greek words are voiceless and aspired: for example, Greek aithêr is the equivalent of Macedonian adê ("sky").

Nikitor is Ionian Nikator is Dorean dialect of Greek.
In doric dialect H was chaned to A
Example AGAPHTH = dear or lavable epithet for woman. (Ionic dialect)
In Doric dialect is AGAPATA (refernce in the poems of Sapfo)


More comments when I search a little more.

Well as Frederik the great said you cant be friend of everyone.
But dont let this hinder you and your comments about national fears on all sides are more true than you can imagine.
Kind regards

[Jona Lendering]

Your comments are most welcome. I'll postpone announcing these pieces.

[Jona Lendering]

STEFANOS:
Please send me your suggestions by personal mail, as I am forced to terminate this thread after receiving more hate mail than I bargained for. I knew it was coming, but I had not expected it before I announced it on the front page of my website; it must be from someone here at RAT, because no one else can know about it. :x

Niketer/Nikator appears to be more complex than you or I thought, my two linguists are toying with it.

Meanwhile, I ordered a trip to Thessaloniki. :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

STEFANOS:
Please send me your suggestions by personal mail, as I am forced to terminate this thread after receiving more hate mail than I bargained for. I knew it was coming, but I had not expected it before I announced it on the front page of my website; it must be from someone here at RAT, because no one else can know about it. :x

Anyone sending Jona hate mail based on his article should be very ashamed on himself.
I'm not sure the sender must be a member of RAT though, it can be someone who knows the link through various channels.

I deplore the claims made these days based on modern perceptions of ancient history. I know the claims China make about Asian territories, as well as those about Macedonia from several groups. Claims about Macedonia based on Alexander's times are as valid as someone claiming Italian overlordship over Europe, Africa and the Middle East based on a (much more and much longer) rule of Rome over these parts.
Get real! :evil:

[Jona Lendering]

As far as I am concerned, I can understand people's irritation. The frontier between the two contending nations is less than an age old and has been the subject of a pretty recent border dispute. I have taken my countermeasures against hatemail (no, I am not going to tell which ones) and will not be disturbed.

Still, I think we must perhaps terminate this thread. What is available is good; we have been able to debate with mutual respect and without anger. That's good and there's nothing wrong with leaving the present messages. However, if the moderators can block further additions, that may be a good idea, as it prevents future flaming & ranting, and saves the moderators an additional job of continued vigilance of this thread. AFAIC, this thread can be locked.