Moderators, please note: Macedonia

[Jona Lendering]

Okay, we have recently discussed 'Make your land like ours' and we have shown ourselves to be grown-up people. I have contacted one of the moderators and we agree that a discussion about another potentially dangerous subject, Macedonia, must be possible; the moderators will, however, closely guard this thread.

I am currently writing a web-article about ancient Macedonia, and the more extreme modern opinions can not be separated from the recent diplomatic crisis. I think that it is prudent (and saves me from replying a lot of hate mail) if I add an explanation about the origin of modern Macedonia. Ladies and gentleman, do you think the following text will be acceptable?

In the nineteenth century, the power of the Ottoman empire on the Balkan peninsula was in decline and new kingdoms like Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria, came into being. They all claimed the area that was known as Macedonia, which was usually described as inhabited by Bulgarians, although there were local nationalists who stressed that the Macedonians were an independent nation. After the Balkan Wars (1912-1914), the country was carved up between the three states and the Serbian and Greek authorities launched harsh politics to change the ethnic composition of the land they had conquered. For example, the "Slavophone Greeks" of Thessalonica were restricted in their cultural activities, sometimes forced to resettle, and replaced by Greeks who had been forced to leave their ancestral towns in the west of Turkey.

After the Second World War, Serbia was the most powerful state in the Yugoslavian federation, and the Yugoslavian leader Tito tried to counterbalance Serbia's hegemony by giving Macedonia some autonomy, arguing that the Macedonians were an ancient nation and were no Serbians. (In fact, Tito recognized that the earlier policy of forced Serbianization had failed.) Another motive was Tito's hope to incite a revolt in the Greek part of Macedonia, which might result in the annexation of Thessalonica as Yugoslavia's southern port. Although Greece was divided by civil war, Tito soon discovered that the Greeks had thoroughly hellenized their part of Macedonia.

During the Cold War, Yugoslavia tried to remain out of the conflict between East and West. Bulgaria, however, was part of the Soviet Alliance, and every time the relations between Sofia and Belgrade deteriorated, anti-Yugoslavian propaganda was directed at the Yugoslavian republic of Macedonia by the Bulgarians. They also stressed that the inhabitants were no Serbians. As a result of all this, nationalist ideas that had existed among some early twentieth-century Slavs living in Macedonia, were kept alive.

Like all nationalists of all nations in the world, the Macedonians had thought about the origin of their nation. Of course they had a Slavic heritage, which meant that they were related to the Bulgarians and Serbs, and had -according to most scholars- settled on the Balkan peninsula in the Early Middle Ages. However, the Macedonian nationalists claimed that the Slavs had always lived on the southern Balkans, and they sought arguments to prove that the language spoken by the ancient Macedonians was in fact an early form of Slavonic. These ideas were highly controversial, and were disputed by historians from modern Greece, who claimed that the ancient Macedonians spoke Greek.

After the end of the Cold War, Yugoslavia disintegrated and its southernmost republic became independent. This would not have cause great problems, but the new state demanded an outlet to the sea and already printed banknotes with the White Tower of Thessalonica. These territorial claims were not appreciated in Greece, and a major diplomatic crisis started, in which the Greeks claimed that Macedonia had been Greek for the past 3,000 years. At the moment, the crisis has cooled down.

Summing up: there are nationalists in the former Yugoslavian republic who claim that their ancient ancestors spoke some sort of Slavonic, and conclude that therefore, modern Macedonia can lay territorial claims to all parts of ancient Macedonia; and there are Greeks who say that the ancient Macedonians spoke Greek. Greece has not made territorial claims.

The point is that both the Slavonic Macedonians and the Greeks claim too much. There is no evidence that the ancient Macedonians spoke a language related to Slavonic Macedonian, and there is no evidence that the Macedonians were regarded as Greeks. The truth may be somewhat like this: the Macedonians, living north of ancient Greece, spoke a language that was related to Greek, were considered to be related to the Greeks, were increasingly hellenized after c.400 BCE and were ruled by a dynasty that was recognized as Greek. However, in spite of diminishing cultural differences, Greece and Macedonia remained separate political units (e.g., the Roman provinces Achaea and Macedonia).

[aitor iriarte]

I like it, Jona, but unfortunately I cannot claim to possess awide knowledge of the subject! :oops:
By the way, have you rented a good helmet and cuirass? You would probably need them... :wink:

Aitor

[Jona Lendering]

have you rented a good helmet and cuirass? You would probably need them...

So far, extremists have expressed their disagreement with my web articles on Alexander the Great with hate mail only, but I do confess that I no longer post in several newsgroups...

[hoplite14gr]

Agree with 80% of what you say but the rule of the thump in ancient Greece until 146 B.C about what is Greek and what is not was:
Were you allowed to participate in the Olympic Games?
The Macedonians and certain Thracian tribes were allowed.
Also Macedonians spoke the Doric dialect and all the inscriptions and language element that we have so far testify that they spoke Greek.
The largest anti-Macedonian bashing was done by Demosthenes and many take him as source to deny the Hellenicity of the Macedonians.
The Doric dialect spoken by Spartans Argives Beotians and Macedonians was uncouth compared to the Attic dialect and adds to the confusion.
The Cavali - Sforcha genetic tables do not distinguish the remain of ancient north Greek graves as different from southern.
The most weird case were the so called Grecomani roughly translated as Greekmaniacs. They could not speak proper Greek and their dialect was partly slavonic but they did not want to assist Bulgarians or Serbians claiming that they were Greeks and hence they suffered terribly at the hands of the Bulgarian Army in both world wars.
Well people have their politics philosophies and beliefs but that doesn't mean that they are true and politics -worse modern politics are dodgy-especially aided by traitors that we unfortunately have in our country.
I do understand that because I am Greek I can be accused of not being impartial but most ancient writers favor my position and genetics too.
---------------------------
Most Greeks feel threatened and not without good reason when their ethnicity is perceived as threatened.
My family as far as written records exists paid lots of blood in the defense of our fatherland BUT I do understand Jona who tries to see it as most objective way. I like his page and I will continue visiting it even if I strongly dissagree with his opinions for we live in the free world.
Kind regards

[Robert Vermaat]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I'm fairly sure that I'll speak for all moderators when I say that this discussion will only be allowed as long as ancient Macedonia is discussed.

As soon as this discussion moves to medieval times and later, the topic will first be moved to the 'Off Topic' section due to it becoming political.

And I think I need remind no-one of the civility of this forum.

Why so stern? Well, I received several out-of-the-blue Macedonian nationalist 'newsletters' and other publications. I know (something) of the problems, though I defer to my friend Chariovalda who is a Balkan specialist.

[Jona Lendering]

I do understand that because I am Greek I can be accused of not being impartial

So far as I can see, your message was impartial and fine with me (karma point added).

Most Greeks feel threatened and not without good reason when their ethnicity is perceived as threatened.

This is indeed a serious point which I try to recognize as much as I can, and this is why I have posted this message here first. Here in Holland, we have no serious border disputes. It is not my intention to write a piece that will insult anyone south of -say- Belgrade.

Were you allowed to participate in the Olympic Games? The Macedonians and certain Thracian tribes were allowed.

What is the evidence that ordinary Macedonians were allowed to the Games? As far as I know, Herodotos makes it clear that the Argead kings of Macedonia were recognized as Greeks, but I am unaware of evidence for ordinary Macedonians.

Also Macedonians spoke the Doric dialect

A Dutch linguist, the late Mr. Ruijgh, told me that Macedonians were bilingual; they spoke north-west Greek and a language of their own that was related to Phrygian. Is there someone who knows more about this subject?

The Cavali - Sforcha genetic tables do not distinguish the remain of ancient north Greek graves as different from southern.

Where can I find more on this subject?

[Jona Lendering]

Those interested in this article, which is still under construction, can find it on-line at [url:hhcwprrc]http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/macedonia/macedonia.html[/url].

[Arthes]

Greetings,
There is this incredibly informative Alexander and Macedon site [url:2ku07i3h]http://historyofmacedonia.org/[/url]
The section entitled The Distinctive Ethnicity of the Macedonians covers most of the topic subject in question...
(and here is me downloading Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Age -
)
regards
Arthes

[hoplite14gr]

Cristina´s link is the "other side".
Jona, perhaps the good professor has solid ground.
Please allow me to get the references I need and in order to avoid "heating" things up and worry the admins I will sent you a personal message hoping that it might give you options to pursue in your study.
I admire that you try to see it objectively and perhaps it helps that in the Netherlands there are not serious border disputes but in the Balkans...oh well......
Kind regards

[Arthes]

Greetings Stefanos and others,
I am not biased either way...Alexander is or was a Macedonian king, so anything connected with him does sometimes have a bias against the 'other side', I guess.
Did Alexander take part in the Olympic Games....I am trying to read between the lines here.....
I suppose as leader or Hegemon of the Pan Hellenic League he may have been made an honoury Greek...and yet there is Antipater fighting the Spartans, Athenians, and other assorted Greeks....when he took over from Alexander as secondry Hegemon :?
This is history and whatever the facts eventually turn out to be, has to be accepted and there are always two (or more) sides to every argument, with varying points of view.
It does depend on what side you are viewing from...
regards
Arthes

[Jona Lendering]

Code:

Did Alexander take part in the Olympic Games [...] I suppose as leader or Hegemon of the Pan Hellenic League he may have been made an honoury Greek

There are several Alexanders. The one who was allowed to compete in Olympia was king Alexander I ("the Philhellene"); the hegemon of the League was Alexander III ("the Great").

[hoplite14gr]

Jona this few for starter and I will sent more in the private message.
I give you too a karma point for your love of ojectivity.

Makednos son of Zeus and Aethra daughter of Deukalion, Patriarch of the Greeks

http://www.answers.com/topic/macedonia#Encyclopedia

Apollodorus Library 1.48.10 1.49.10

Pindarus Olympia 9.42

Herodotus Histories 9.45

Isokrates "Tp Philip" 127

Alexanders oath at Opis

Kind regards

[Jona Lendering]

Thanks; I first write the whole article (which is not easy with construction workers in the backyard), then we'll keep in touch. It will not be announced until you'll appreciate about 85% of it.

[Arthes]

Greetings,
I have just listened to the first instalment of Alexander and the Hellenistic Age....
The Lecturer seems to be of the opinion that the Macedonians are related to the Greeks using the following:
The four categories used by Heironymous to decide on the relationship of races are:
Blood – Macedonians are of the Heroic genaeology as they are also descended from Hellas, although on the outskirts of Greek geneology.
Language - Macedonian names are Greek, so Macedonian is a [rural] dialect of Greek
Religion - They have a mixture of Greek and non Greek…Zeus and Artemis both worshipped in Macedon…also Bendis, which is a Thracian version of Artemis and another Goddess similar to Epona.
Customs - Pan Hellenic Games are only open to Greeks.
Macedonian (I assume Alexander Philhellene) turned down until showed relationship to Argaed Royal House, which was considered Greek.
The legendry founder of the Argaed Dynasty was called Perdiccas, descended from the Heracleids, which would make the ancestry Greek..Phillip claimed ancestry from Hercules.
Yet, Alexander attacked Thebes, the birthplace of Hercules and destroyed it as a punishment to the Theban rebels.
regards
Arthes

[Arahne]

Jona you forgot to add the part of history between Balkan wars and II world war ( rather important).
I don't believe that it is possible to write brief history of any of the existing Balkan slavic states. Situation was always so complex with this mixture of all kinds of tribes and nations. Besides that, I dont understand why is it so important to argue with ignorants about Slavs as autochtoneous population in Balkan. It is like arguing with non-landing on the moon, or statistic chronology theory.