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In a posting in a military magazine I read that the focale was used until late middle ages by troops wearing chain mail. In Pertros Bouas condota in the Venetian service 1490- 1505 it was Kroat troops who used it with their chain mail. Their "Kravata" or "Chravata" was something of unit pride and the author was suggesting that this is the origin of neck tie and its name in Italia, Spanish and French.
Kind regards
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Rob Wolters wrote: Quote:I have checked this reference on Bill Thayer's Website: Pliny_the_Elder and I can't find it there. Also, your quote from Pliny on the colour of the paludamentum I found in book XXII rather than XX. Bill Thayer makes some remarks on some translations having a different lay-out. Could you perhaps give me a quote in Latin or perhaps the exact source of your reference.
Dear Rob
Apologies for that. Yes the correct reference for the colour of Paludamentum from Pliny is NH book 22.iii.3 as you yourself also refer to in your posted reply to Tarbicus dated Mon Sep 05, re Tunic Color.
As for the reference to the Paenula neck opening I must confess that I have spent a frustrating afternoon looking through my notes for it, rather than finishing the painting I should be doing!
Unfortunately I do not have a copy available of the Loeb edition at home only the Penquin abridged version which of course does not have this section in it. Nevertheless I thought I had photocopied the relevant references to clothing from the Loeb edition but that particular one typically is also not in my files. I do not think I invented it so it must be somewhere.
I have also checked the obvious references to Paenula in Bishop, Croom and Wild but no joy there either. If you can wait I will look at the Loeb edition again when I am next at the Manchester University Library unless someone out there can help! In the meantime I will continue to look through my notes and If I find it I will of course let you know.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Graham,
Please, any English translation of the relevant passage(s) of the Martyrdom of Pionius for a lazy amnesic... :wink: ?
Aitor
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Hello Aitor
Quote:Please, any English translation of the relevant passage(s) of the Martyrdom of Pionius for a lazy amnesic... ?
Now that I can supply immediately! But guess what I have two versions!!!
The first version was supplied to me by Raffaele D' Amato the second via Paul Holder at Manchester University Library. Both are from the original Greek. I would have to ask them what their sources for their translations are.
'.....and the commander of the cavalry, after having taken him (Pionius) closed around his neck the scarf and gave him to the Diogmitai, to choke him a little'.
'.....then taking hold of Pionius he knotted the scarf around his neck so that he was practically choking'.
Yes I already know your opinion of translations, I guess this example confirms it, however at least they both agree on the use of a scarf to throttle the unfortunate Pionius!
Some additional information on scarves can be found in P.Gachon in the Daremburg Saglo Dictionary 2,1194 and Cagnat-Chapot Manuel d'archaeologie romaine 2 Paris 1920. Here the military scarf is called Focale but soldiers letters from Egypt call it either Maforthes or Mafortion (Maphorion)
p.s
Rob, looking through my notes again I found a mention of the scarf being worn because of the wide neck opening of the Paenula in both 'Roman Cloaks', T.Shaw. Exercitus vol.1 no.4, 1982. and 'The Byrrus Britannicus', J.P. Wild. Antiquity XXXVII (1963) 193-201.
Shaw was obviously my source for the Pliny reference NH XXIV.18 but that clearly is incorrect. Until I can check with the Loeb edition of Pliny it is possible I have mistaken his observation of the scarf for a Plinian one! Wild however mentions that Pliny says the hood of a Paenula looks like a bindweed leaf NH XXIV. 88. One number out!
Wild notes that because of the weak point at the neck and the need to wear a scarf the Paenula was possiby replaced by the Byrrus as this had a triangular neck flap at the front.
Hope this helps
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Quote:The first version was supplied to me by Raffaele D' Amato the second via Paul Holder at Manchester University Library. Both are from the original Greek. I would have to ask them what their sources for their translations are.
'.....and the commander of the cavalry, after having taken him (Pionius) closed around his neck the scarf and gave him to the Diogmitai, to choke him a little'.
'.....then taking hold of Pionius he knotted the scarf around his neck so that he was practically choking'.
Yes I already know your opinion of translations, I guess this example confirms it, however at least they both agree on the use of a scarf to throttle the unfortunate Pionius!
From the 'matyrdom' I take it this is a Late quote? I very much hope so!
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Quote:Rob, looking through my notes again I found a mention of the scarf being worn because of the wide neck opening of the Paenula in both 'Roman Cloaks', T.Shaw. Exercitus vol.1 no.4, 1982. and 'The Byrrus Britannicus', J.P. Wild. Antiquity XXXVII (1963) 193-201.
Shaw was obviously my source for the Pliny reference NH XXIV.18 but that clearly is incorrect. Until I can check with the Loeb edition of Pliny it is possible I have mistaken his observation of the scarf for a Plinian one!
Possibly. I ran a search on "focal" in Thayer's Pliny a got zero results.
Quote:Wild however mentions that Pliny says the hood of a Paenula looks like a bindweed leaf NH XXIV. 88. One number out!
Found that one too, though technically he said the opposite :wink:
Quote:Wild notes that because of the weak point at the neck and the need to wear a scarf the Paenula was possiby replaced by the Byrrus as this had a triangular neck flap at the front.
Hope this helps
Graham.
thank you for taking the time to check your sources for me.
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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A further item on this topic is that I notice Mathew specifies no fibulae whereas one is de rigeur for the guard. Whats the reasoning mathew?
Quod imperatum fuerit facimus et ad omnem tesseram parati erimus
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Simple! I've never seen a Roman depiction or description of a fibula on the focale. Until I do, it's verbotten. It just ain't necessary.
By the way, my site also suggests blue-green for the color, since I had run across a reference to some artwork that showed one that color. (Might have been Fuentes?) Not sure, but I suspect this is the fresco referred to:
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/tavern.jpg
That would be the guy on the right, but I think that's a paenula we're seeing. Two of the other guys have the same garment showing, different colors. I would LOVE to see a modern reconstruction of a paenula that will look like that! History's mysteries...
Hey, what am I doing here? Forget you saw me, hee hee!
Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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Matthew Amt wrote:
Quote:I've never seen a Roman depiction or description of a fibula on the focale.
Quote:By the way, my site also suggests blue-green for the color, since I had run across a reference to some artwork that showed one that color. (Might have been Fuentes?) Not sure, but I suspect this is the fresco referred to:
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/tavern.jpg
That would be the guy on the right, but I think that's a paenula we're seeing.
Hello Derek
I would agree with Matthew on both points. As you say it is a Guard fashion to wear a fibula on the focale and probably under the circumstances a minor harmless one but just the type of thing soldiers may well have done.
As for the fresco the blue green scarf appears in another tavern scene not this one. In that example the soldier also in a paenula holds a beaker awaiting to be served (see one of my above posts). In the scene Matthew has pointed out I think what we are seeing are the two sides of the paenula brought almost together at the front forming a single point instead of the more usual 'w' shape.
This scene has also been put forward as evidence for soldiers wearing red tunics. However apart from the red tunic there is nothing else which would suggest these men are soldiers.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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So to sum up there is no authority for the focale let alone the fibulae that tie them.
I have never worn a lorica without a focale but I do find it comfortable to protect my neck from the metal. On the other hand I need to wear extra padding to get the right sort of hang on the front plates and it would be nice to have a cowboy style neckerchief around the neck to use as a general rag which you could quickly unknot and use especially to wipe the sweat out of your eyes.
One other thought is that I use a squarish focale folded in two and this does provide some extra protection for the neck which would otherwise be exposed especially to the front
Quod imperatum fuerit facimus et ad omnem tesseram parati erimus
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Just curious, but what is the earliest evidence for a neck scarf or focale? Was the focale introduced with the segmentata, or do we know of earlier, perhaps civilian, uses of neck scarves?
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Quote:Graham Sumner:qpv2b14m Wrote:When I discussed this point with Hero Granger-Taylor she emphasized the point that the Romans at that period did not cut garments to shape and that a rectangular design more like any modern scarf was more likely.
Graham.
Mr. Sumner,
Is it likely that soldiers would have been wearing clothing, and accessories produced by non-Romans? thus allowing clothing that would have been cut to shape? I too, have been under the impression of a triangular shape. I have been using a large square shape piece, folded diagonally to make a triangle, however. Much like modern day Parthians (Arabs) wear on top of their heads, which is also a single woven, un-cut piece.
Marcus Julius Germanus
m.k.a. Brian Biesemeyer
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Resurrecting a very old topic - is there any more recent evidence that legionaries (in particular) early imperial ones, wore neck scarves? I assume not, but would appreciate any new information.
Thanks.
Ben
Ben Kane, bestselling author of the Eagles of Rome, Spartacus and Hannibal novels.
Eagles in the Storm released in UK on March 23, 2017.
Aguilas en la tormenta saldra en 2017.
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