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Khairete,
I found this really interesting link [url:31vvdnmg]http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/[/url] on a site I think is Gregory Liebau's.
Those helms are exotic.....!
Also interesting to see an Achaean warrior wearing a body suit in around 12-1100BCE.
Take the Quiz :Which Homeric hero are you? [url:31vvdnmg]http://film.guardian.co.uk/quiz/questions/0,5952,1214346,00.html[/url]
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
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Well.........I seem to be Achilles...... :lol:
Achilles. You're a good person to have around on the rare occasions you're ready to do some work, but you have volatility issues. Your willingness to enlist the help of your mum won't win you any friends, either
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
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Quote:Khairete,
I found this really interesting link [url:1de9lkbu]http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/[/url] on a site I think is Gregory Liebau's.
Those helms are exotic.....!
Great link! Great models, too!
The artist has sometimes combined styles that are not Mycenean. Some helmets are from a later period (e.g. the Peleset 'hair' helmets and what seems like an early Celtic one?. A common mistake is taking the scenes from Knossos in Crete and using them for Mycenean palaces. But Minoan culture was different from Mycenean or other Greek styles.
I know that chariot! It's based on a drawing from Angus McBride, and originally an Egyptian chariot... which differed from chariots of surrounding peoples.
Take the Quiz :Which Homeric hero are you? Odysseus!
It was hard too choose, the questions were kinda obvious..  Take it on the nose/sulk/call your mum...
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Wow! Yes, I like them!!!
I never understood why Connolly gave Achilleus an Austrian helmet...
Some of the shields on the models look like a cross between the dipylon type and the figure-of-eight. If I remember rightly, the figure-of-eight is the earlier and more likely to have featured in the Trojan wars, while the dipylon would have been more the size of the Argive aspis, and of that (Classical) period, or just before.
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The Dipylon and Beotian shields are an evolution of the 8-shaped shield.
8-shaped was an evolution over sakkos and the fact that appears on the palace frescoes testifies to its value as a battle winner.
Dypilon and Beotian, if you trust traditonal chronolgy, is the "Dark Age" Geometric era shield and might have appeared on the Trojan war.
The fully metal covered shields of some Homeric heroes might have been like the hoplon.
Connolly gave Achilleus an Austrian helmet because that was availble when he wrote the book. We still wait for a full exibition of the Thebes arsenal that will allow a new consept in reconstruction.
If yo ulike check the Bronze age forum for details.
Kind regards
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Khairete, Quote:If you visited Gregory´s "Bronze Age" webpage then you might like this reconstructions.
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... id=3255947
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... id=3256018
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... id=3256007
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... id=3255987
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... id=3267148
Its the work from Nios who made the Hoplites in Paul´s webpage.
Hope you enjoy!
Kind regards
Very nice artwork....I like the third outfit personally, with the tassled tunic.
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
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Salimbeti is a brilliant artist but doesn't know a whole lot about how armour is supposed to function. His reconstructions are very subjective and should not be taken too seriously. Yes he includes elements from the archaeological record but his lack of knowledge about body armour and Homer's work in general leads to some glaring errors. He also mixes up time periods by putting early Mykenaian arms on late Mykenaian (Homeric) characters.
Look at Ajax for example. There is nothing in the Iliad to suggest that he wore a Dendra panpoly. There is nothing in the Iliad to suggest that he carried a tower shield. In addition, that particular shield did not have a bronze facing and it was unlikely to have been carried by a heavily armoured warrior. These shields were only used by lightly armoured infantry to protect against arrows.
Another is the image of Hektor. There should not be a scallop in the shield's side. Homer specifically describes Hektor's shield as circular on multiple occasions. Another point about the shields is that every one of the shields described by Homer have bronze facings. Very few of the shields on Salimbeti's site have bronze facings.
The dots on the helmets are supposed to be an interpretation of the Warrior Vase but that illustration is so simplistic that one could give dozens of interpretations for it. The so-called "studded leather" interpretation is highly unlikely IMO.
My particular favourite is the studded red body suit. There are so many reasons why this would never have been worn that I don't know where to begin.
The best part of this site is the helmets. Very comprehensive and well-drawn.
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Quote:Some of the shields on the models look like a cross between the dipylon type and the figure-of-eight. If I remember rightly, the figure-of-eight is the earlier and more likely to have featured in the Trojan wars, while the dipylon would have been more the size of the Argive aspis, and of that (Classical) period, or just before.
There are no "figure-8" shields in the Iliad. There are no "tower" shields in the Iliad. Every single shield described in any detail by Homer is circular.
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Quote:Salimbeti is a brilliant artist but doesn't know a whole lot about how armour is supposed to function. His reconstructions are very subjective and should not be taken too seriously. Yes he includes elements from the archaeological record but his lack of knowledge about body armour and Homer's work in general leads to some glaring errors. He also mixes up time periods by putting early Mykenaian arms on late Mykenaian (Homeric) characters.
Most of the blame does not lie with this artist, but with Peter Connolly, whose drawing are almost always the example followed by mr Salimbeti.
Quote:My particular favourite is the studded red body suit. There are so many reasons why this would never have been worn that I don't know where to begin.
Now that one is quite another matter!!! the Red Knickerbocker Suit...
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Quote:There are no "figure-8" shields in the Iliad. There are no "tower" shields in the Iliad. Every single shield described in any detail by Homer is circular.
Yet Peter Connolly insists on them. Was he so completely off the mark?
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Well, there is Ajax's 'Shield Like a Tower / wall' from Iliad 7.219-221; 11.485 and 17.128. ('Ajax approached bearing his shield.
It was like a tower made of bronze, with seven layers, each one of ox-hide') This could not really be understood in any way circular (although it does have a central boss a few lines later).
Which of course brings us to the whole was Homer describing contemporary warfare or a (slightly misguided) understanding of how warfare must have been waged 300+ years earlier.
Cheers
Murray
PS - I was Odysseus - but that was probably deliberate!
Murray K Dahm
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\'\'\'\'No matter how many you kill, you cannot kill your successor\'\'\'\' - Seneca to Nero - Dio 62
\'\'\'\'There is no way of correcting wrongdoing in those who think that the height of virtue consists in the execution of their will\'\'\'\' - Ammianus Marcellinus 27.7.9
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I just spent three years examining the Iliad specifically looking for shield references and re-translating the text. With any luck my work will be published next year. Homer is very clearly using the line in question to describe Aias as the metaphorical "tower of strength". The only way that phrase on lines 7.219, 11.485, 17.128 can be used to describe the shape of Aias' shield is if it is mistranslated deliberately ignoring the order of the three words in question and ignoring the case of the two nouns. This false translation also relies on the assumption that the Greeks called this particular typology a "tower" which is very very unlikely. In fact there is nowhere in the entire book where Homer describes the shape of Aias' shield. There is no reason not to assume that it was circular like every other shield described by Homer.
Hektor's shield is very clearly and specifically described as being both full-height and circular. It is possible that multiple traditions are attributing two different shields to Hektor - one that is full-height and one that is circular. But even if that is the case there is nothing to suggest that the full-height one is the figure-8 typology. There at at least 4 different full-height shields in the archaeological record from the early Mykenain period through to Homer's time and Hektor's could just as plausibly been any of them. There are specific arguments for it NOT to be the figure-8 typology. Hektor's shield was faced with bronze, the figure-8 was not. Hektor's shield has a central domed boss, the Figure-8 did not. Hektor's shield had a central hand grip, the Figure-8 did not.
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Hi Dan,
I look forward to seeing that in print - please let us know references when its out. I haven't done anywhere near the in depth analysis you have so I defer to you. I only looked for references which would support the 'tower-like' shield of the double figure on Agora P4885 as being from the Iliad. I can't find an image on line but I will be giving a paper on the scene at ASCS XXVII in Hobart in late Jan/early Feb.
Incidentally I heard a paper from Mary Galvin from Newcastle on 'Helmets and the Iliad' in May at Sydney - she seems to have done a similar in depth study of helmet references - is he an acquantaince?
Incidentally this scene is the only depiction AFAIK of tetraphaleros helmets in Greek art.
Cheers
Murray
Murray K Dahm
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\'\'\'\'No matter how many you kill, you cannot kill your successor\'\'\'\' - Seneca to Nero - Dio 62
\'\'\'\'There is no way of correcting wrongdoing in those who think that the height of virtue consists in the execution of their will\'\'\'\' - Ammianus Marcellinus 27.7.9
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