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Last Legion in Britain???
#1
Guys,

I'm looking for the last legion to leave Great Britain, circa 402 or 407AD. I think it is either Leg II Aug or Leg XI VIC. . .

Can anyone give me a firm date and for which legion???

Lidless
Mark Krug
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#2
Quote:Guys,
I'm looking for the last legion to leave Great Britain, circa 402 or 407AD. I think it is either Leg II Aug or Leg XI VIC. . .
Can anyone give me a firm date and for which legion???
Hi Mark,

No one can.
It's certainly not the XI. I guess that was a typo for the VI, but it wasn't that either. The 6th does show up in the Notitia Dignitatum, but just under the listing of the wall units.
Quote:Occ. XL: DUX BRITANNIARUM, 18. Praefectus legionis sextae
However, the 2nd shows up three times, as a legio comitatensis:
Quote:Occ. V: MAGISTER PEDITUM PRAESENTALIS, Dux Britanniarum,
241. Secunda Britannica, legio comitatenses
Occ. VII: DISTRIBUTIO NUMERORUM, Intra Britannias, Comes Britanniarum, 84. Secunda Britannica, legio comitatenses
Occ. XXVIII : COMES LITORIS SAXONICI PER BRITANNIAM, 19. Praefectus legionis secundae Augustae, Rutupis
Occ. VII. Qui numeri ex praedictis per infrascriptas provincias habeantur:Intra Britannias cum uiro spectabili comite Britanniarum, Secundani iuniores [possibly referring to a split off unit of the 2nd, in the British field army].

The current opinion is that the 6th was either broken up during the earlier 4th c., or maybe after the Carausian rebellion, and that some skeleton force of small detachment remained at York (at best). the name could even mean something like 'the unit at York' , because 'Sextae' had sometimes become an alternative name for the town.

The old Legio II Augusta was also broken up into smaller units. Some of these served in Britain when the Notitia Dignitatum was written down (c. 394 or later), but some part ceratinly went to the continent, possibly with the armies of Magnus Maximus or as late as Constantine III:
Quote:V. Insignia viri illustris magistri peditum, Legiones comitatenses XXXII,
Secunda Britannica [a unit serving in the Field Army]
VII. Intra Gallias cum uiro illustri magistro equitum Galliarum, Secundani Britones [a unit of the Gallic field army]

We also find Aderetani (Aderita/Pevensey) in Gaul, or Segentienses (Segontium/Cearnarfon) in Illyria, so to find parts of the old 2nd with more British units on the continent is not surprising. No more traces of the 6th though.

Ok, that's the evidence of what may have served where. As for the date, that's anybody's guess. I guess (I hope!) nobody believes anymore that Britain was stripped of troops either by Magnus Maximus, Stilicho or Constantine III. That would have meant burning their ships behind them, plus it's not attested in archaeological research.

Did the 2nd actually leave? Maybe, part or all of the British field army would have been the first to leave. Or did it just fade away when at some point the pay no longer arrived (which often happened)? In Austria on the Danube, some soldiers went to look for their pay after it had been in arrears for quite a long time (they were murdered by brigands Cry ).
Or did a local town council (soon to evolve into a sub-kingdom) take up the role of local defender, paying what was left of the unit?

Your guess is as good as mine. I believe in a post-Roman British defensive capability, just not in crack legions around 500 AD.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#3
Robert,
Do you have the exact quote for that story of the Austrian soldiers.
The latin text would be helpful too... 8)
Thanks,

Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#4
Quote:Robert,
Do you have the exact quote for that story of the Austrian soldiers.
The latin text would be helpful too... 8)

Sure Aitor,
here they are. It's a quite famous quote, very telling for the end of the Roman occupation. St. Severin is one of those 'holy men' who are in effect taking the organisation and defence of some of the border regions from the failing Roman government, like St. Germanus in Gaul and Britain. Odoacar later evacuated the whole Roman population of Noricum Ripense to southern Italy.

Quote:Eugippius, The Life of St. Severinus

Latin text
English translation

XX: Per idem tempus, quo Romanum constabat imperium, multorum milites oppidorum pro custodia limitis publicis stipendiis alebantur. Qua consuetudine desinente simul militares turmae sunt deletae cum limite, Batavino utcumque numero perdurante. Ex quo perrexerant quidam ad Italiam extremum stipendium commilitonibus allaturi, quos in itinere peremptos a barbaris nullus agnoverat. Quadam ergo die, dum in sua cellula sanctus legeret Severinus, subito clauso codice cum magno coepit lacrimare suspirio. Astantes iubet ad fluvium properanter excurrere, quem in illa hora humano firmabat cruore respergi, statimque nuntiatum est corpora praefatorum militum fluminis impetu ad terram fuisse delata.

XX: So long as the Roman dominion lasted, soldiers were maintained in many towns at the public expense to guard the boundary wall.67 When this custom ceased, the squadrons of soldiers and the boundary wall were blotted out together. The troop at Batavis, however, held out.68 Some soldiers of this troop had gone to Italy to fetch the final pay to their comrades, and no one knew that the barbarians had slain them on the way. One day, as Saint Severinus was reading in his cell, he suddenly closed the book and began to sigh greatly and to weep. He ordered the bystanders to |70 run out with haste to the river, which he declared was in that hour besprinkled with human blood; and straightway word was brought that the bodies of the soldiers mentioned above had been brought to land by the current of the river.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#5
Many thanks, Robert!! Big Grin

Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#6
Quote:I'm looking for the last legion to leave Great Britain, circa 402 or 407AD. I think it is either Leg II Aug or Leg XI VIC. .

What do you think about roman legion sent in Britain later (it was mentioned by Bede, Gilda and some annals)?
a.k.a. Yuriy Mitin
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#7
Quote:What do you think about roman legion sent in Britain later (it was mentioned by Bede, Gilda and some annals)?
That's from Gildas, and Bede is merely quoting Gildas (and therefore not an independent source). Gildas calls all units 'legions', and since we know that since Diocletian, newly created units were also called legions, this need not mean any of the two classic legions.
Personally though I think Gildas is stylizing earlier history into three 'expeditions', as he also has the Romans invade Britain three times at the start of Roman history in Britain.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#8
Robert, you certainly know your stuff. What became of the XXth legion?

I am very intrigued as to the state of affairs in 400AD. I'd really like to find out (as much as possible) what units were left.

And where was the Comitatenses? Where was the British field army stationed? Which cities might prove good candidates?
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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#9
Quote:Robert, you certainly know your stuff. What became of the XXth legion?
I am very intrigued as to the state of affairs in 400AD. I'd really like to find out (as much as possible) what units were left.
And where was the Comitatenses? Where was the British field army stationed? Which cities might prove good candidates?
Thanks! :oops:

Here are some links to articles of mine about Gildas:
Gildas - De Excicio et Conquestu Britanniae
Gildas and the Dark Ages
Gildas - when did he write?
Gildas - where did he write?
Gildas and Vortigern
The text of Gildas - De Excicio et Conquestu Britanniae (On the Ruin and Conquest of the Britains) Book I, ch. 1-37. (Both Latin text and English translation).

The XX is last heard from under Carausius. Most likely they were his primary supporters and were either annihilated during the war or disbanded after the rebellion was put down by Constantius. It's pure speculation, but my money is on that last option.

The Comitatenses were the units of the several field armies.

If there was a British field army (and there may only have been ome on several occasions, not continually), it was stationed in several cities. The field armies never had a fixed base, but were billeted on towns and cities. For Britain, Viroconium Dobunnorum (Wroxeter) was certainly a good candidate, due to it's central position, proximity to Wales and the large number of plumbatae found there.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#10
Thanks Robert, I'll get reading!

I read with interest Luke Ueda-Sarson's comments on his lovely Notitia Dignitatum site that he thought the XX might have been renamed/rededicated, rather than disbanded. I rather like that idea. If my memory seves me right, he suggested that the XX might be a couple of regiments titeled 'Solenses' in the East.

The Not Dig is a complex document to navigate, and I don't pretend to understand it or its implications. I would like to, though. Big Grin
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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