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Aurelian`s elephants
#16
Quote:"I myself have seen an elephant clanging the cymbals, and others dancing; two cymbals were fastened to the player's forelegs, and one on his trunk, and he rhythmically beat with his trunk the cymbal on either leg in turn; the dancers danced in circle, and raising and bending their forelegs in turn moved also rhythmically, as the player with the cymbals marked the time for them."

And you think he saw that in Rome? Could he see that somewhere in the East? He was asian greek...

Quote:The editor of my german translation Gehrke writes that elephants were quite common in Rome.Pompeius used (or wanted to use) some in his triumph, Caesar shipped some from Italy to Africa to train his troops before the battle of Tapsus, Claudius shipped 2 over to Britain and they are mentioned being used in games and such.

You tell me about I century BC-I century AD, but I speak about Aureian`s reign, it`s the end of III century. According to SHA it was very unusual.

Quote:Pompeius used (or wanted to use) some in his triumph

So Pompeius captured them in Africa, when he waged war with the local kings (Plutarch, Live of Pompeius, 14). The question is where did Aurelian get the elephants?
a.k.a. Yuriy Mitin
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#17
Quote:Today i read Aurelian`s biography from SHA and I noticed that at his triumph (after the victory over Zenobia) there were 20 elephants (XXXIII, 4). I have a question: How were they used then? In military campaigns or performances? And what did romans do with captured elephants at all?
I would say that Zenobia (or rather her late husband Odenathus) captured them from the Sassanid Persians, who used them as infantry strongpoint, command- or missile platform in battle, but apparently far more for logistics. Palmyra would not have been able to get these beasts from India.
The Romans did not use elephants in battle. Captured elephants were shown off in parades, after that it's unknown.
Eaten? Held as pets or in private zoos? Presents for allied kings?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#18
Quote:
Quote:But there are no elephants mentioned in the battles on Zenobia's side, either!

But the elephant was`t usual thing in Rome. Noone had it.

He (Aurelian) was also presented with an elephant of unusual size, which he then gave to the emperor, and Aurelian was the only commoner of them all who ever owned an elephant. (SHA, Life of Aurelian, V, 6)

So there were not elephants in Rome before Zenobia`s defeat and Aurelian`s triumph. Where were they taken? What do you think?
No, that doesn't say that there were no elephants in Rome, only that no private individuals owned them. Elephants were from time to time seen in the circus, but perhaps they counted as Imperial possessions.

Since the description of the triumph referred to animals from Africa and Palestine, I suspect that it's most probable that these were North African elephants, and had nothing to do with Palmyra at all - no more than the giraffes, or indeed the Blemmye and Axumite tributaries.
cheers,
Duncan
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#19
I saw some German TV documentary on the Colosseum.
At some point the camera showed Elephant glufs but just for a few seconds.
I think these glyfs might depict the "hunting games" presented there.
In Byzantium the "statue of the elephant of Severus" is mentioned and the story has it that his owner was transporter of goods.
I think only the Kushans actively used elephants at war at the roman imperial period.
Kind regards
Stefanso
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#20
Quote:...but perhaps they counted as Imperial possessions.

The elephant of Aurelian was given as a present for Roman emperor (In Juvenal, xii.106‑107 elephants are designated as Caesaris armentum, nulli servire paratum | privato - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... tml#note23 ) and it means that Imperial possession and Aurelian privat possession are the same.
a.k.a. Yuriy Mitin
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#21
H.H. Scullard's book The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World addresses the use of elephants in Roman processions. It was a common iconography for Emperors to show themselves in elephant-drawn chariots on coinage. It was also a motif on Late Republican coins of Caesar. Pompey also attempted an entrance into Rome with an elephant-drawn chariot (which failed to work out).

Romans captured elephants in Africa. The Sassanids got theirs from India. The Indian elephants were larger and meaner than the African ones and hence were more suitable for warfare.

The Romans used their elephants as spectacles in the arena or for parades. They were common enough to be available and uncommon enough to wow the crowd. So, Aurelian's elephants wouldn't necessarily have been captured from Zenobia.
[Image: artorivs-mcmlx.gif]
[size=75:y4iezjz4]David Sullivan
Lynnwood, WA USA[/size]
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#22
We did talk about some aspects of elephants in this earlier thread.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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