Greek footwear

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

They look good so far. I think they're going to be great. Good interpretation. And they'll look even nicer when the leather will get darker...

[nikolaos]

John,

Nice looking boot! How is he planning on attaching the sole?

Thanks
Cole

[John Conyard]

The soles will be attached using a tunnel stitch. The leather will be darker when oiled. Hopefully they will be finished in the next month or so, but there's no rush. It's all coming together nicely - the sword is designed and with the Comitatus sword maker, the helmets are being bashed in India, and the horse is clipped for the spring. Nobody to play with, but it's fun putting it all together.

[Kineas]

Very nice. I assume he'll stitch the sole from the inside and turn them on a last?

My only two comments--one, is that sinew? (or fake sinew?) I assume from a series of comments including Socrates that all leather sewing in period was done in sinew not linen thread.

Two--is that a saddle or harness stitch? Or is it a single needle overhand/running stitch? Again, as far as I can tell, double needle harness stitching is a medieval invention, but this is NOT my area of expertise for research (just for construction). I note that the shoemaker vase doesn't have a wheel for marking--there's another vase illustration with an apprentice using an awl and nothing near him for marking holes, and the 2nd C. gilded leather slippers from Egypt seem to be done single needle, very small, running stitch,and appear to be done in sinew. As far as I know, that's the way of the period.

None of which is meant to detract from the fact that your boots will be the ne plus ultra of the hobby when completed... very nice indeed.

And if any of you have any doubts about what I just said about construction, my info comes from:

"A Pair of Gilded Slippers" by Hannah Phillip, published in "The Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt" Vol. 7 1968, p. 73-77

For a superb article with every literary quote that pertains, see: "Greek Shoes in the Classical Period" by Arthur Alexis Bryant (Harvard Studies in Classical Philology) Vol. 10 1899, P. 57-102

PS--As I'm building some stuff, any evidence to the contrary (saddle stitch or linen thread) I'd like to see! As I'm happier with those techniques...

[John Conyard]

Hi,

I can't access the newsletter, but I do know of a pair of gilded slippers from Egypt, Victoria and Albert Museum 837-1903 and 837A-1903, sewn in linen with silk embroidery. Dated tentively to the 5th century. Give or take. But there seem to be lots of shoes from Egypt.

[Kineas]

Is that 5th C BC? Or AD?

Cool. I'll find them.

Thanks, as usual!

Now back to the scale shirt that ate my life...

[John Conyard]

The slippers are dated to 5th century AD, but the dating is give or take a few hundred years either way. They were part of the Constantine exhibition that came to York in 2006. But the description of guilded slippers fits them perfectly.

I have two friends in Comitatus who are making their horses scale armour. It does seem to take up all their time.

[nikolaos]

Wow, I guess they don't need a hobby

Cole

[M. Demetrius]

That's a lot of scales! Any idea what the "coat" will weigh when completed?

[Kineas]

wow.

I'll stop carping about making 1200 scales.

[John Conyard]

Both have done enough to cover about one side of their horses. I can't help wondering if I couldn't superglue this lot to my tube and yoke cuirass. Anyway it's very heavy, will slow down Mark's speedy horse and will probably cause the beast to over-heat in hot weather. It will look better when covered in horse sweat and other horse stuff.

[Kineas]

Since I really don't want my friends and co-Plataeans to make 1200 scales each, do these lucky equites have a source for pre-cut scales?

Would they share?

[Martin Moser]

Hi Kineas

Very nice. I assume he'll stitch the sole from the inside and turn them on a last?

Probably little to nothing is known for Greek shoes, but if you look at Roman shoes of the 1st cent AD for example they are not turned but built on a last quite similar to modern ones.

Two--is that a saddle or harness stitch? Or is it a single needle overhand/running stitch? Again, as far as I can tell, double needle harness stitching is a medieval invention, but this is NOT my area of expertise for research (just for construction).

It is definitely around in caliga construction, so from the late 1st cent. BC onwards at the latest. Linen was used by then as well.

I note that the shoemaker vase doesn't have a wheel for marking--there's another vase illustration with an apprentice using an awl and nothing near him for marking holes,

Looking at original leatherwork it appears that quite often there was not much emphasis on very evenly spaced stitching. More (or less) experience and eye-measure seems to have been adequate mostly.

my info comes from:
"A Pair of Gilded Slippers" by Hannah Phillip, published in "The Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt" Vol. 7 1968, p. 73-77
For a superb article with every literary quote that pertains, see: "Greek Shoes in the Classical Period" by Arthur Alexis Bryant (Harvard Studies in Classical Philology) Vol. 10 1899, P. 57-102

Thanks for mentioning those, I'll try and find them! :-) )

[Kineas]

Thanks, Martin. I'm actually beginning to doubt the assertion that they didn't have a double needle stitch, because of the way leather stitch lines are shwon on vases--so every littl ebit, even from 400 year's later, is great.

[John Conyard]

The boots have a simple running stitch for seams, and an overstitch for the lace holes. There is a great deal of stitching.

The cavalry scales are punched out using a basic tool. I fear our chap would like to finish the scales for both cavalry armours, and then move on to a third.......

But I think for infantry armour, hand cut scales look much better. Each scale slightly differs from the next and the that is easily detected when a shirt is made up. Forgive me attaching another picture of some of my Roman scale, flexible and rigid. The scales have a different feel about them compared to the regular scales of the horse armour.[attachment=0:3i88m7ef]<!-- ia0 Armour. Mail, flexible and inflexible scale.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3i88m7ef]