Roman warship from the Fortuna temple relief in Praeneste

[Uwe Bahr]

Avete omnes,

I have some questions about this famous relief that most of all if not everybody in this forum knows. It shows the warship from Praeneste with the crocodile as a second ram (in German: 'Obersporn'). At the prora (foredeck ?) above the crocodile one can see a structure that has been declared by some scholars as ventilation opening for the oarsmen under deck. The horizontal stripes would be a detachable cover from the inside.

But what are the three lances representing that seem to come out of the structure mentioned before and point straightforward, one with some kind of a disc at the shank? Do we see here the tip of a ballista or of the harpoon-like harpago? Any ideas?

[url:xxthi400]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/uwe-bahr/praeneste-relief.jpg[/url]

Another Question: there are shown only two rows of rudders and two men of the Roman marine infantry are standing on a box that shows something like rudder blades. Do You think that here really is shown how the oars are drawn in? May be to support the enter maneuvers against a second galley whose outlines can be seen at the very right of the relief?

Thanks in advance - Uwe

[Uwe Bahr]

... BTW, the right soldier on the box with the lorica musculata shows nice interior detail of his scutum, something like a check design.

[Tarbicus]

But what are the three lances representing that seem to come out of the structure mentioned before and point straightforward, one with some kind of a disc at the shank? Do we see here the tip of a ballista or of the harpoon-like harpago? Any ideas?

Could be pila, the one in the middle weighted? But I could be very very wrong, and it's an interesting suggestion which would make sense.

Another Question: there are shown only two rows of rudders and two men of the Roman marine infantry are standing on a box that shows something like rudder blades. Do You think that here really is shown how the oars are drawn in?

The problem with that is the number of 'slots' doesn't match the number or pattern of the two rows of oars below them. I personally think it's a decorative ledge for the marines and sailors to stand and maneouvre on. Note a similar decorative effect running up the prow at the left, although smaller in size.

[Praefectusclassis]

But what are the three lances representing

Hard to say. Perhaps it's a sort of three pronged upper ram, as you sometimes see. Who knows? The sculptor is defenitely not as good as you would like. The tower, for instance, seems to be on a lower level than the soldiers behind, but higher than the half-figured guy in front.
I don't think that one row of oars have been pulled in. More likely this represents a quadrireme or quinquereme with two/three men per oar.

[Uwe Bahr]

Jasper, Jim,

thank You very much for Your contributions. So the oar blade-like elements on the box might be just some kind of decoration, may-be something like laurel leafs?

About the "lances", Jim thought of pila, Jasper of a second three-pronged ram. I googled through Internet and found a lot of coins struck by Antonius' legions that are dated between 32 and 31 BC. They show galleys that indeed have second rams looking three-pronged. But some examples show a second ram that reminds me a bit to a crocodile-like animal as it is shown on the Praeneste relief (perhaps I only see what I want to see, wishful thinking :wink: ):

[url:3cmj5ili]http://ventesuroffres.free.fr/images/monnaies/vso/v05/v05_0177.jpg[/url]

So, could it not be that the crocodile on the relief represents the second ram and the 'lances' are something else, perhaps also some kind of decoration?

IMHO the 'lances' depicted on the relief are too weak to function as a second ram against a hostile ship and if the sculptor had intended to represent a three-pronged second ram, he might have been capable to do this, as his work is nevertheless highly detailed. Just my unproved thoughts ...

Another question, do You think that the Praeneste relief with its crocodile symbol refers to Egypt and thus to a ship of Antonius' fleet? On other coins struck after Cleopatra's and Antonius' final defeat the crocodile is clearly intended to represent the beaten Egypt:

[url:3cmj5ili]http://home.tiscali.be/andreas.pangerl/VIC-Historical.html[/url]
(scroll down a little bit, please)

Greets - Uwe

[Tarbicus]

reason no.578 for the Fall of the Roman Empire

Looking at the relief, maybe Jasper's right. Reason being that perhaps sculpting the prongs, which are delicate, forward of the bow was problematic, and they were scaled down, just like the tower, to keep them workable and as a relief, not a full 3D sculpt? The crocodile kind of goes halfway, but that has a more solid shape anyway. As the marines are an important focus of the "message" and subject they are naturally larger than life consistent with other similar works of the times, and even much later.

[Antonius Lucretius]

There are two rows of soldiers on the ship. The back row is standing on the bridge and the two men in front are standing on what looks like an outrigger.
If, I insist on the "if" this is an outrigger, it is more likely that the "laurel" decoration are indeed shipped oars and this is a three banked capital ship.
As for the spear like things sticking out of the prow, what about protruding catapult bolts? The catapults of course being inside, much like the "pursuit guns" in the prow of later medieval galleys.
Just a suggestion..

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

One of the coins with the Crocodile is from Nimes (France). That city was designed colony to release veterans of the civil war between Augustus and Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra.



The santuary of praenestre have a clear connexion with the egiptian world, like shows his well know mosaic, sometimes mentioned in the tunic colors discussions.

You can find an interesant point of view of that in:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/events ... ncient.htm

[Patrick Tansey]

On the question of the scene depicted in the Praeneste relief the conjecture that it relates to the battle of Actium tends to be asserted rather than argued – and just yesterday I came across an old article suggesting the relief portrays an event from Claudius’ invasion of Britain ! (P.Mingazzini, ‘Lo sbarco di Claudio in Britannia’, Mitteilungen des Deutschen Archaeologischen Instituts Roemische Abteilung 80 (1973) 283-4). The author presents little in the way of real argument – it is more a case of substituting one unsubstantiated attribution for another. He claims the crocodile motif proves nothing.