Pannonian cap

[Viventius]

Here's one of our chaps:

http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sgnuk/ ... m=e99a.jpg

[Tarbicus]

Are these pannonian caps as well, very ornate?

[url:2pp63zez]http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ulf/statue02.jpg[/url]

From this page: Roman political art: Hieratic Style

[aitor iriarte]

No, they are laurel? wreaths. Possibly golden ones, given the stone set in the middle... 8)

Aitor

[Tarbicus]

Right then, image changed to a link to save everyone's bandwith.

[Alkimachos]

Hi to all!

My name is Athanasius from Macedonia (N. Greece/Hellas). I'm glad about my registration here, as the site seems to be beatiful and useful enough. Me, and some other guys from England from the West and from Iran (Persia) to the east, we making a modification for M2TW game which called "East of Rome". It's a mod which begins from Justinian 'til the Heraklian era. I'm the 3d modeller there.

Now, i'm trying to make a Limitanei unit during the Maurikian period and what i'd like to ask is, until when it was used the Pannonian cap? Is there any possiblity for the Medieval Romans (Byzantines) during the reign of Maurice to still have it in use?

Thanks in advance...
(sorry for my English)

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Welcome Athanasius!

I'm familiar with East of Rome. I myself mod for INVASIO BARBAROVM on the RTW platform.

As for the Pannonian cap, I believe it would be likely to still see it, but I'm not sure it would be common. I'm no expert on Early Byzantine, only late Roman. I have however seen images in osprey books of Justinian-era troops using then. So maybe.

[Alkimachos]

Welcome Athanasius!

I'm familiar with East of Rome. I myself mod for INVASIO BARBAROVM on the RTW platform.

As for the Pannonian cap, I believe it would be likely to still see it, but I'm not sure it would be common. I'm no expert on Early Byzantine, only late Roman. I have however seen images in osprey books of Justinian-era troops using then. So maybe.

Thanks for your answer. And an other question.. What type of helmets you suggest?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

This thread here:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/14-gami...ction.html

May help you in that. This guy is from a different Mod.

[Alkimachos]

This thread here:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/14-gami...ction.html

May help you in that. This guy is from a different Mod.

He's from EoR too. Thanks for your help.

[Morco]

Avete, Omnes ... some Very Interesting discussions on here

Mithras Cult brought to Britain by Roman officers but is it certain exactly when ...? I've visited two Mithraeums on The Wall and the remains of the one in Londinium, Mithras is usually depicted wearing a Phrygian cap and I ask the opinion of the Forum mainly from the aspect of a late 1st century Romano-British itinerant venator who currently wears a wool-cloth Phrygian cap ('Garden Gnome', yes - also been called a 'Smurf'- I may post an image when I've learned how to do it...)

I made one of these caps in leather (sheepskin, fleece inside) but it has to be really cold to wear it just standing around as I found wearing it during any kind of physical activity you quickly over-heat

[Renatus]

Vegetius says this (1. 20. 18):

Usque ad praesentem prope aetatem consuetudo permansit ut omnes milites pilleis, quos Pannonicos vocant, ex pellibus uterentur.

I translate this as:

'Almost up to the present day, the custom has persisted that all soldiers wore caps of skins, which they call Pannonici.'

This indicates that the Pannonicus fell out of use shortly before the time that Vegetius was writing. Vegetius' outside dates are 383 and 450, although I would be reluctant to see him writing after 410. It would seem, therefore, that the customary wearing of Pannonici ceased by the middle of the 5th century at the latest.

[Quintus Aurelius Lepidus]

L.C. Cinna Wrote:
[quote]However the late 2nd century column of Marcus Aurelius shows auxiliaries wearing Phyrgian hats. You could wear one of those but you do run the risk of looking like a garden gnome!

where can you get such a phrygian hat?

[Morco]

I have seen Phrygian hats on a statue of Paris of Troy - but the statue is dated to 2nd C AD. A Phrygian hat is good for an archer, doesn't interfere with the passage of the bowstring like a brimmed hat does and wearing one makes it easy to loop stuff over your head. Being different schools of thought, I sort-of looked at Mithras for an answer to my Phrygian hat question as one reference has him arrived in Britain by 80AD.

I have other hats - a Scythian hat (the same reason as above and more stylish) ; a rather tonsure-shaped worsted 'cowpat' to serve as a helmet comforter (when I find a helmet that fits me) using good lanolin wool, knit a tea-cosy - without the holes - then boil it to shrink and thicken up. Also a plain wool-felt cap in the shape of a basin. I've tried out leather caps but I find these rather uncomfortable to wear.

In reply to the question - I make all my stuff from patterns copied from statues, images on pottery, etc. Caps are pretty easy to make, needing only the circumference of your head if a close-fit is desired.

Images (if successful) are early but the style of hat seems to remain the same, still worn today

[Nathan Ross]

Mithras Cult brought to Britain by Roman officers but is it certain exactly when ...?

The earliest mithraeum, I think, is at Carnuntum, dated cAD80. The cult didn't really gain wide popularity until the later Antonine era though - under Marcus Aurelius and Commodus particularly. Interesting that this is also the period when phrygian caps start appearing quite often in Roman art, so maybe there's a connection.

If so, the cap would only be common from the later second century onwards. Before that, the wearer might be mistaken for a Phrygian...

[Morco]

It is a strange coincidence but I've just seen what to all intents and purposes is a stall selling knitted Phrygian / Scythian caps on the High Street.
I saw them worn in Turkey in Konya and Tarsus by workmen back in 1996 ... they looked very homespun, flaps over the ears (some of the men had the ear-flaps tucked inside).

Forgot I had this photo, sorrry ... good one of my Scythian cap (but that isn't me wearing it, modelled by supervenator)