Othismos true nature

[PMBardunias]

Thanks Giannis, those clips are great. I'm adressing this on my blog, so the clips are very welcome.

You'll notice that charging into each other is irrelevant in tight formation. Take a look at 25 seconds into the first clip to see what happens when small groups crash into a tight packed crowd- nothing. Hoplites wer at least this tightly formed, if not more so, and at least 8 ranks deep usually.

At 26 seconds you see they push just as I described, standing up and facing the enemy, not side on. My guess it that by trial and error they have realized exactly what the hoplites knew about using the force of crowds properly. Any Russians on this site who may know these fellows by chance???

At 34 seconds you see two lines hit and just stop each other. From there an othismos would have the two crowds pushing, but these men probably would not survive that much pressure. What seems to occur is that the two lines ease apart enough to use their weapons. This mutual pull-back may have occured with hoplites as well and spear fencing would commence before they pushed again.

Now look 19 seconds into the second clip and you'll see what happens when men charge into a looser formation. They get swallowed up by it. They break in and the line seals around them. Here against loose ranks is where a wedge would be useful, but the broader the front of the penetrating force the more likely it is to be stopped. The tight packed nature of hoplite ranks is why you don't see hoplites forming wedges.

This is an illustration of why I don't believe that hoplites finished their charge by crashing into each other head-long in a disorganized mass that would become intermingled, but probably pulled up at dory range and collided in a slower, more orderly fashion, perhaps even stopping and spear-fencing until the rear ranks caught up.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I agree. On the other hand,most likely the majority of hoplite armies charged running in the last meters between them. This would inevitably cause that swallowing efect in many different parts of the phalanx,unless at least one of the two formations kept their order. And here again is the key of the supposed Spartan superiority. They probably never broke ranks to charge running and thus what the enemies faced was the same as in the 25th second of the first clip. You can also realise that a phalanx battle lasted very little. For how long can two groups stay locked like this,without extreme losses?
And how weren't there any serious injuries in that Russian event?
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

On the other hand,most likely the majority of hoplite armies charged running in the last meters between them.

I used to think this, but now I think its the reverse. All but the spartans charged at run that probably did not mix ranks, but surely pulled each rank out of perfect alignment- some men surging forward, some lagging a bit until the next rank coming up behind them reminded them to go faster. In the last few meters, I think rather than speeding up, they slowed, the ranks regaining their alignment and stacking close as the rear ranks caught up. This denser formation is what collided.

The only thing I am unsure of is whether this reforming occurred outside of spear range or if the leading men from each side stopped close to the enemy and began to spear fence while the men behind them stacked up. In that case there would be two clear phases- one of spear fighting after the stop at the end of the charge, then a mass collision when one side of the other felt they were dense enough to do so. Perhaps both occurred at different times.

This would inevitably cause that swallowing effect in many different parts of the phalanx,unless at least one of the two formations kept their order. And here again is the key of the supposed Spartan superiority.

I agree completely

They probably never broke ranks to charge running and thus what the enemies faced was the same as in the 25th second of the first clip.

Of this I am unsure, simply because the running charge is so often written about. Even if a jog it would be impossible to keep the level of density we see in the film. The walking spartans would have had to pack tighter before impact, or after contact, to push effectively. But as long as the ranks are not hopelessly mixed, each rank can lock shields when they stop close to the enemy and do the kind of shuffling charge we see in the film for the last few meters.

You can also realize that a phalanx battle lasted very little. For how long can two groups stay locked like this,without extreme losses? And how weren't there any serious injuries in that Russian event?

It must have been terrible. I'd love to hear from one of the front rankers in that Russian film to see what it is like. It shows why being a "fore-fighter" in a phalanx was considered such bravery.

You armored Greeks need to replicate that dense formation because you will have overlapping shields. My guess is you will be impossible to break.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Unfortunately,even the Spartan Warband,the SCA team,that have enough members,do not lock shields and they don't even fight overhand. This ruins all the intelligence of a phalanx formation,and I'd say it waists the team's strenght. But I may be wrong,because I don't know the SCA regulations.
Paul,I think it's impossible that the front rankers,even if they had some space from the following ones, had any time to start spear fencing. I mean,lets say they charched and stoped just before the enemy's spear reach. Do you imagine 7 or more ranks just waiting behind them? And I don't think that once they started joging with a given speed,they could then slow down without the rear ranks pushing them instantly onto the enemy. On the other hand,what's the difference between the "doratismos" and "othismos"? I think there is no clear difference in the two phases,when both accured.
If you're interested in my understanding of it, I think there was an instant crash of the formations.This would be where many spears would break,and where shields could be penetrated. As we saw in the vids,the two formations would stop each other's charge. Locked shields(or even not quite locked during the running but increasingly locked as the men took their place again in the lines) would prevent the mixing of the formations.Now remember that the big round,heavy and hollow shield would act rather differently than those narrow medieval ones. It would be even more difficult to penetrate the formation,even without an orderly packed phalanx.
Now,I think after the formations stopped,the pushing did not start at once,as the ultimate purpose of the hoplites. The formation would start becoming tighter and tighter,but at least for some moments the dront rankers would have the space to move their arms and try some targeted hits. They may even have made a step back from the enemy,to have the ability to target the front rankers and to avoid the second and third rank's spears.
Third step,I think it happened naturally that as the rear rankers were trying to reach the enemy over their fellows' shoulders,they pushed them forward and forward and when all front rankers where fighting shield to shield- helmet to helmet with the enemy,then it was the job of the rear rankers to push them,as if they wanted to penetrate the enemy formation just with pushing and not with killing them. I also imagine that pushing was inevitable,the rear rankers feeling the pressure from the fighters in front of them. At that point killing must have been difficult. Perhaps the laconian sword was the most efective way to kill,as you could maneuver it just with your wrist,being unable to move your arm properly.
And at last either one of the two formations suffered losses or was tired and was penetrated,or it decided to retreat. In the first case,this would cause falling hoplites(perhaps from both sides) and instability in all the formation. It was a quick end. with many dead from the lost side.

Now we should again remind everybody that no hoplite battle was exactly the same. I could even say that in large armies both your theory and mine happened in the same time in different parts of the field. I don't know if once the othismos started it was possible to unlock the formations just a bit and start again spear fencing(thoratismos).Though it seems unlikely without breaking the ranks.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Unfortunately,even the Spartan Warband,the SCA team,that have enough members,do not lock shields and they don't even fight overhand. This ruins all the intelligence of a phalanx formation,and I'd say it waists the team's strenght. But I may be wrong,because I don't know the SCA regulations.

I was told years ago that a true othismos-style collision was not allowed. I don't know if this is true.

Paul,I think it's impossible that the front rankers,even if they had some space from the following ones, had any time to start spear fencing. I mean,lets say they charched and stoped just before the enemy's spear reach. Do you imagine 7 or more ranks just waiting behind them? And I don't think that once they started joging with a given speed,they could then slow down without the rear ranks pushing them instantly onto the enemy.

I'm putting together a little cartoon film to demonstrate this, I'll link you when its done. We often talk of the spacing between hopites laterally, but rarely do we conside the space between ranks in a charge. Surely this was at least 2 meters to keep men from tripping eachother. Even at a fast jog, if the men in front of you slow down and stop, you will have time to stop as well if they are 2 meters ahead of you. Remember, you are not charging bliond, you can see around the front rank and know you are close to the enemy and predict the stop. What I think is possible, especially in the early hoplite phalanx is that they did simply stop at spear range and fight for the time it took all 8 ranks to tighten up. If we accept 2 meters between ranks, which I think is conservative, then when you in the front rank stop, the 8th rank is 14 meters behind you. This will take more than a few seconds to tighten up. While this is occurring the front two ranks are probably spear fensing with the first 2 enemy ranks. The ranks get tighter and tighter until some limit, basically aspis to back, is reached and then the whole mass shuffles forward into collision.

On the other hand,what's the difference between the "doratismos" and "othismos"? I think there is no clear difference in the two phases,when both accured.

This is a good point. too often this has been portrayed as an either/or scenario. The overhand thrust allows striking in othismos, so the doratismos really never ends.

If you're interested in my understanding of it, I think there was an instant crash of the formations.This would be where many spears would break,and where shields could be penetrated. As we saw in the vids,the two formations would stop each other's charge.

True, but you'll notice they all formed packed ranks before they charged. I used to agree that the charge came immediately at the end of the run. You will often read about using the charges momentum, but this is probably wrong based on all I have learned about how to win a pushing match. If not shield to back, when you collide the momentum is as useless as the men slamming into the packed lines in the video clip.

Locked shields(or even not quite locked during the running but increasingly locked as the men took their place again in the lines) would prevent the mixing of the formations.Now remember that the big round,heavy and hollow shield would act rather differently than those narrow medieval ones. It would be even more difficult to penetrate the formation,even without an orderly packed phalanx.

I'd love to see a collision like in that video with overlapping shields. I'd love to know if they stayed in the press of combat long enough for men to be crushed too much to breathe.

Now,I think after the formations stopped,the pushing did not start at once,as the ultimate purpose of the hoplites. The formation would start becoming tighter and tighter,but at least for some moments the dront rankers would have the space to move their arms and try some targeted hits. They may even have made a step back from the enemy,to have the ability to target the front rankers and to avoid the second and third rank's spears.

From that description, I'm not sure we are disagreeing. The front ranks could have "crashed" into the men in front of them in the doratismos I described at the beginning phase, I just thing its impossible that all the ranks crashed in formation. Remember the spacing, there needed to be a delay for the rear to catch up and tighten. This can happen in one of two ways and proably occured in both ways at different times. Either each successive rank starts to push against the men in front as they arrive, or each rank arrives, then gradually starts to push after they tighten. What I don't see happening is the front ranks crashing into eachother and immediately starting to push as some would have it.

Third step,I think it happened naturally that as the rear rankers were trying to reach the enemy over their fellows' shoulders,they pushed them forward and forward and when all front rankers where fighting shield to shield- helmet to helmet with the enemy,then it was the job of the rear rankers to push them,as if they wanted to penetrate the enemy formation just with pushing and not with killing them. I also imagine that pushing was inevitable,the rear rankers feeling the pressure from the fighters in front of them. At that point killing must have been difficult. Perhaps the laconian sword was the most efective way to kill,as you could maneuver it just with your wrist,being unable to move your arm properly.

I agree, and surely that is how the whole idea of othismos began. Later armies, and here I think is the key to spartan success, arrived in such good order and perhaps with less space between ranks, that they could move very swiftly to the othismos phase.

Now we should again remind everybody that no hoplite battle was exactly the same. I could even say that in large armies both your theory and mine happened in the same time in different parts of the field.

well said, I agree

I don't know if once the othismos started it was possible to unlock the formations just a bit and start again spear fencing(thoratismos).Though it seems unlikely without breaking the ranks.

I'm not sure myself. This concept has been put forward to explain the length of battles and even in the video we saw what looked like a mutual pull-back to make room to swing those poleaxes. For the formation to loosen, it would have to do so from the rear, so its possible that once the men are exausted and the pushing falters, the rear rankers loosen up.

Any disagreement we have is now narrowed down to really fine points, so we are pretty much in agreement. Do you agree that they probably pushed facing the enemy not shoulder on? This point alone is a big departure from the prevailing theory.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Any disagreement we have is now narrowed down to really fine points, so we are pretty much in agreement. Do you agree that they probably pushed facing the enemy not shoulder on? This point alone is a big departure from the prevailing theory.

Yes,I do think that they were forced to fight face on. If you have to push you have either to look in front or to be exactly vertical. This second stance allows for better pushing if you are alone. Example,try to open a locked door and put some pressure for some time. One the other hand,it doesn't allow you to see properly. You wouldn't predict the blows from your left,given you wore a helmet. And Finally-and most importand, you cannot be pushed withoud disastrous results. So yes,othismos required chest to the enemy.
There is a small disagreement in this spot,I think. You have denied the shoulder in the shield. I think that the depth of the shield is so small that you could have your left shoulder in it,you may were slightly to the side but still you were facing the enemy. And though I dodn't find it appropriate to start a fight about the overlaping of the4 shields here,if the shields were overlapping the way i think(left over right) then even that slight angle would be fixed. But lets not idealize so much the phalanx. No shield had the same angle witht he next, no man had the same angle with the next and as a living creature,it changed position every time he found some air.
Something else,the side position does allow for better movement and stability when you're not pushed. It also protects you better and I think it was the natural way to fight. So if hoplites had some time for spear fighting before the othismos,then i think they fighted like this.Once they started being pushed,even just from the second rank,they were inevitably coming to face the ebemy.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Giannis the videos are from the festival of Vyborg.
They give us splendid info on medieval combat and warband charge.
These guye are well with ex-Mosfilms costumes bought for peanut during "perstroica". Thought the law is stric,t my wife told me it s part of the Russian soul to say "heck with the bloody govenment". Some of these guys might haves met various friends and had a hearty dose of vodka!

Their value in massed spear fighting can be questioned because this was not their intent and you see most of them carry weapons not easily handled in packed groups.

"Spartan Warbanband" are legally restricted in activity it seems because their contribution would valuable if they were not disallowed certain action styles.

Some photos with our exepriments on close combat, othimos and other issues will be posted with comments and our conclusions.

[PMBardunias]

There is a small disagreement in this spot,I think. You have denied the shoulder in the shield. I think that the depth of the shield is so small that you could have your left shoulder in it,you may were slightly to the side but still you were facing the enemy. And though I dodn't find it appropriate to start a fight about the overlaping of the4 shields here,if the shields were overlapping the way i think(left over right) then even that slight angle would be fixed.

Actually, even with the shield rim pressed to the chest as I describe, the shoulder is "in" the shield because to rest on the chest it must arch over the left shoulder. I completely agree that they would pull back the right side of the body when there was room to do so- standing completely square and spear-fighting is not natural. Where I differ from some authors is that I think the position is the common, left foot forward stance of a boxer, not the completely sideways stance of a fencer or some martial arts.

Overlap right over left more naturally leads to a left forward, right back position when not in a tight press, since the shield is being rotated towards the right by the pressure of the one behind it. Left over right leads to a more natural side-stance once the pressing starts, but as we see this is not favorable.

[PMBardunias]

Their value in massed spear fighting can be questioned because this was not their intent and you see most of them carry weapons not easily handled in packed groups.

Its not a case of mass spear-fighting, but masses of men colliding. Weapons play is secondary, and this film shows some of the best footage of men colliding in formation that I've seen. They are the only ones I know of who are using enough men to show the true properties of such a crash, and even they should have at least 4 ranks and overlapping shields for the most basic hoplite phalanx.

There are a number of sites online that profess to know "hoplomachia" and how hoplites fought, and have "tested" lots of maneuvers, but without a realistic number of men and the conditions they create this is guesswork. Perhpas worse that guesswork, since many things that seem correct with unrealistic loose formations will not work with in the real combat environment of the hoplite.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul,I think we agree in our view of how hoplites fought. We disagree only in shield overlap,but if we have something more to say,better move it to the right thread. As for hoplite stance, see my avatar. If you have space,the movement starts from this point, and bringing your body forward(not necessarilly bringing your right foot forward) you complete the strike with your spear. The waist starts from vertical like in the photo and ends leaning forward. This way you have the ultimate momentum to penetrate armour with your spear. If you do the step forward with your right leg,you either expose yourself ot even brake the shield wall.
To continue with the movement, it starts like my avatar and it ends like this painting of Connolly. Only you would also bring your arm forward to stike. You can stike with your body stable in that position,but if you have the space to move, you'll always hit stonger of you do all the movement

Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

I wouldn't turn out my back foot, but otherwise I agree. The pose I have problems with is the one shown below, where a hoplites stabs over his head without bringing the right shoulder forward. If you don't bring the shoulder forward with the twist of your body and the thrust of your hips forward, the strike is weakened.

The over the head strike is in my opinion artistic not realistic.

[Paullus Scipio]

...I would suggest that your two statuettes (and other depictions) should be seen as 'stills' from a clip showing the thrust.....your 'no' still is the preparatory - right hip and shoulder drawn back, arm and spear drawn to the rear....your 'yes' still, the thrust about half-way through, hips rotated, shoulders parallel to hips, arm moving past head....pity you don't have a third still, showing hips fully rotated, arm extended in front of head etc - but such a pose looks a little awkward and hence eschewed by artists......
The same technique for a powerful thrust ( push off rear leg, hips rotate fast, shoulder parallel to hips, follow through on hip rotation) is still taught in many martial arts such as Karate, and much the same principles used by baseball batters.....(even though they are concerned with horizontal swing) - human physiokinetic principles are universal.....

[PMBardunias]

I agree that they are stills, but the "no" stance listed above is unnecessary. There is no need to drop the right leg that far back for an arm strike, all it does is delay your motion and rob you of the leg extension that provides power. You would need to move the right leg forward first them push-off or else you get a fencers lunge. I think the "no" stance is purely art. You'll note that boxers who strike with their hands, as opposed to kickers, do not stand like fencers. Remember my problem is with them striking from "no" and not squaring up.

Here is a more realistic extension, though the shield is opened from the body. I would say the moment captured is halfway through, he needs only twist the upper body and square his shoudler and strike with the arm. This flows from Giannis' avatar position, with his weight back, but not from "no", where the body is forward already with no upper body twist.

[Paullus Scipio]

.....well, my Japanese Karate instructors would consider Mr "No"s raised right foot and lean forward bad form ( he can't properly push off the back leg, or generate powerful hip torque with a raised foot).....but I think in general my comment is valid.......
Here is a sketch showing two frontline Hoplites from above in 'close' formation ( pyknosis) - the textbook 3 ft-90cm apart....it can be seen that both have room to fight/manoeuvre....both are in classic fighting stance...left foot forward, knee bent, covered by shield....right leg back, almost straight ( excuse my poor attempt at foreshortening! ).
The left figure is in a preparatory position ( like Mr "No"), right arm pulled back, right shoulder and hip at 45 degrees to his front...he thrusts by pushing hard off his right leg, causing fast hip rotation which in turn whips the right shoulder forward........the right figure shows the thrust at full extension...hips/shoulders rotated almost through 90 degrees, lower body still firmly planted, right leg thrusting...balance maintained....right arm fully extended forward.
The recovery will be a just-as-quick 'whip' back...the reverse of the thrust.
Note that the shield remains 'face on' to the enemy throughout, offering not even a momentary gap to be exploited by the enemy.

I should add ,perhaps, that this is also how a karateka's most powerful punch is performed, and the stance and technique most commonly used for tamashiwara ( board-breaking), so this technique is also the most powerful way of delivering a spear thust, over or underhand! :twisted:
Paul B wrote:-

There is no need to drop the right leg that far back for an arm strike, all it does is delay your motion and rob you of the leg extension that provides power. You would need to move the right leg forward first them push-off or else you get a fencers lunge.

....I hope that the above demonstartes this is not the case...no delay is caused, and with the right leg back, this is the most balanced and stable stance ( a vital consideration when your own shield is taking blows and maybe shoves....).
To provide all the necessary leg thrust, it is quite enough to go from right knee slack to knee 'locked out'...this is quite enough to gain power and momentum in the hip rotation/whip...there is no fencer's lunge, and neither foot moves, but remains firmly planted...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Nice drawing Paul M. I have to point out that the foot normally looks to the side when in the first phase of the strike.Like in my avatar. Then,with the hip twist,the foot turned somewhat in front. Again remember that the shieldshad to be locked. Can such movements not couse disorder with the right over left shield overlap?
But gentlemen, I think there is no point explaining all those details. I mean,we might find the best (theoretically) fighting tecnique during the first phases of the battle,but we can't say that this is how hoplites were TRAINED to fight. I mean,some may have been fighting in the one stance,others with another. Some may have been fighting in a way you would call "wrong". And finally,many of those things depicted in art are impossible because of human anatomy and natural movement. What is important,is that once the rear rankers started pushing,then the hoplites were pressed with chest on their shields. And even this is not that important to start debating about,just because if you're pushed,there is no other way you can fight. Unfortunately few beople have participated in large enough formations and even fewer have been pushed with a shield in them. The videos above explain many things. And thr closest experiane one can have is in a pushing croud,either in a stadium or cinema or whatever. If you have to push,you have to have chest forward.
Khairete
Giannis