Othismos true nature

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:-

I have to point out that the foot normally looks to the side when in the first phase of the strike.Like in my avatar. Then,with the hip twist,the foot turned somewhat in front

....if we are talking about 'text-book' technique ( which might go out the window in battle) it is important that the right foot not be turned, nor pivoted on ( which produces weak leg drive), but be turned forward so as to drive powerfully....this is strongly emphasised in martial arts training ( but we must remember that few Hoplites were 'martial artists' trained by Hoplomachai !! )

Some may have been fighting in a way you would call "wrong".

...indeed! One only has to look at the fluidity displayed in those videos to realise that massed fighting can be quite 'fluid', even in a confined space, and textbook stances hastily adapted to fast-changing circumstances......

Again remember that the shieldshad to be locked. Can such movements not couse disorder with the right over left shield overlap?

....some confusion here, I think. 'close order'/ pyknosis has each man on a three foot/90cm front carrying a three foot/90 cm aprox shield, so shields would be just touching rather than overlapped. In Hellenistic manuals for phalangites with two foot/60-70 cm shields, a purely defensive formation called synapsismos/locked shields is described where each phalangite has an 18 inch/45-50 cm front and the shields, necessarily sloping back because of the two-hand grip, must overlap somewhat. I believe that for Hoplites, pyknosis and synapsismos were largely the same, but with shields touching and not significantly overlapped....

What is important,is that once the rear rankers started pushing,then the hoplites were pressed with chest on their shields.

As Paul B. will tell you, I am not an advocate of his rather sophisticated Othismos model for all sorts of reasons. Here it is important to note that in our historical sources, othismos usually only occurs at the end of battles, when both sides are fairly exhausted, and vulnerable to their line being physically "shoved" - the result with fresh men is, I imagine like what you see in the videos with the 'massed charge' - the receiving mass of men is too 'elastic' and the momentum of any shove 'absorbed' by a deep formation pushing back ( and even four deep suffices).

[PMBardunias]

Paul, I like the drawings and have no quarrel with them since you have not drawn them in a truly perpendicular orientation like a fencer. They are in fact what I was attempting to describe.

a purely defensive formation called synapsismos/locked shields is described where each phalangite has an 18 inch/45-50 cm front and the shields

You describe this as purely defensive, yet we can see in the video men under a spacing scheme that would be synaspismos if they had the proper shields doing exactly the shuffling charge I predicted. This is not defense, it is massed offense.

As to the timing of when it occured, we do not know that it happens late in the battle, only that it happens after some period of spear-play. What I described above, with the spear fencing during the delay inherent in packing the men in tight could surely fit most descriptions. Moreso as we do not know how long it would take to get men packed in that tight under realistic conditions. We also don't know if there were cycles of closer and looser combat which would account for longer battles.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B wrote:-

You describe this as purely defensive

...sorry, I should have made it clear that it is the tactical manuals that describe synaspismos as 'defensive',
Offhand, I can think of at least two occasions when such a formation was used offensively......by Alexander against elephants, and by Antigonus against the Spartan phalanx at Sellasia

we do not know that it happens late in the battle, only that it happens after some period of spear-play.

....well, certainly it does not appear to occur without considerable fighting beforehand ( usually).....and of course the 'late in the battle' point may be a circular one......othismos is often what breaks the enemy line, and rout follows, hence 'late in the battle'...!!

As to length of battles, no two were ever alike, but 2-3 hours seems to be average, 1 hour a 'quick' battle and 'many hours ' or 'all day' a rare and protracted even battle........clearly combat was not continuous, and it is likely that (like modern riots which last many hours) there were bouts of close combat, broken up by periods where the sides mutually drew apart.....

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul M, I think there's also another confusion. "Pyknosis" is anoun describing a verb while "Synaspismos" is a noun describing a situation. Pyknosis is the action/movement of betting tighter (pyknos=thick). Synaspismos is a permanent situation when the shields are put together(overlapping) (συν + ασπίς) .The terms are very close,but their connection is that after the picnosis(with the hald rear men coming forward?) you have synaspismos (due to lack of space between the lines).
The spear fighting can't have lasted for long before the othismos started. The people in the videos may be crazy(good for us) but they certainly don't wish to kill. We don't see the phenomenon of the second or third ranks wishing to reach the enemy orderly over the front rankers' shoulders. To achiece this they'd have to push,intentionally or not. And again as I said,I can't imagine the rest 7-15 ranks just waiting the front rankers to get tired to start pushing. Because if thei did so,when the front rankers would have been exhausted,the rear rankers would be still fresh.
The othismos could have been even when all the ranks touched their shields to the front man's back. This alone produced some sort of pressure and certainly prevents the pushing back. This still allows for some spear fighing. Ass the time passed and the anxiety of the rear ranks increased,they'd start pushing really hard. We don't necessarilly have to see the phases as an intended plan,for it wasn't so. I simply thing it happened physically and inevitably with all those tightly packed (a bit drunk) men.
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

I think we are largely in agreement. Considering the variance hoplite battles and changes over time I would imagine that everything we have described in the past few posts occurred at times.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

In this video there is some short pussing with about 2-3 ranks and very few men. It is at 00.19. Near the end of the video you see how some of them are using their roman shields offensively. At some stages of the battle I'm sure such movements were included in the hoplite fighting as well.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZvKtf9OnNlA&feature=related
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

In this video there is some short pussing with about 2-3 ranks and very few men. It is at 00.19. Near the end of the video you see how some of them are using their roman shields offensively. At some stages of the battle I'm sure such movements were included in the hoplite fighting as well.

You'll notice how innefficiently they are packed compared to that Vyborg video. If there were more ranks, the lack of packing would render their addition useless. To me othismos was not the first stage of battle, and probably did not even occur in many battles. This is probably the case against non-hoplite foes and would explain the "common" 4 rank formation used by the 10,000.

What we see in this film is the type of shield bashing and limited pushing common to almost all shock combat. We should perhaps be careful to keep the term Othismos free of associations with this, since it was a far more concerted phase of pushing. I do agree that this kind of limited pushing occurred as well.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

My point was more about the position of their bodies when there are other men behind them and when not.This doesn't require too many men,though it is affected by tight formations a bit. Also,these men are not using a spear that has to be held overhand...
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

My point was more about the position of their bodies when there are other men behind them and when not.

yes this is interesting. You'll notice that they all start out with their shoulders in the shield and a bit side-on. Then when the pushing starts, the rear ranked men are in the "classic" hoplite pushing stance- side-on, leg braced and pushing with the shoulder in the shield. The men in the front ranks however cannot maintain this position and collapse in on themselves, as I have argued, taking on a front-on posture with the shield more across the chest than braced by the shoulder. With any continual pressure this man will die, for he cannot breath when crushed against his shield like that.