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Prodromoi
#16
Quote:What do you think the Prodromoi looked like? Long sleeved tunic(color?), bronze helmet, boots and a sword/sarissa..?
I don't have anything more likely than the Kinch Tomb figure to put forward, for colours or otherwise: just pointing out that the identification isn't certain.

cheers,
Duncan
cheers,
Duncan
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#17
Quote:The pic above Based on a wall paiting from the 'Kinck tomb' near Naoussa, The figure shows a light cavalryman in the last years of Philip's reing.
One problem is that, as pointed out above, the date of the Kinch tomb is not at all certain. Therefore, the figure may not be a prodromos at all. I say this with some reluctance, since - as Dr Sekunda points out in his book - I made the identification before he did (or at least got it into print first).

The suggestions about Alexander re-equipping the prodromoi are possible, but speculative.

cheers,
Duncan
cheers,
Duncan
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#18
Quote:Sorry John, I was hasty and I forgot to look the picture in detail.
Just for the record, my dictionary says:
Sarissa = 6 to 7 meter pike cirka 18 feet. Infantry weapon
Xyston = Ancient cavalty lance 3 meters (11 feet?) Best image Alexander mosaic possibly. The horsemen were called "Xystoforoi" = the ones bearing Xyston.
2-handed lance charge by horsemen is associated with Sarmatian or Armenian catafracts. I would appreciate a better informed view though.
Kind regards
Stefanos

I use lances up to nine feet as a Norman ( hawk, spit!). It would be possible to use longer ones, with training. We have to use them one-handed, and it's not necessary to couch (tuck them under the armpit) them, although this does put the horse's momentum fully behind the lance.
3m is 10 feet ( assuming 3'4" to the metre).
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#19
Wew Late Romans use 2.70m (9ft.) lances, and I think I've read of later Byzantine cavalry that they used 6 to 8 meter lances!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#20
I agree with those that say that an 18 foot spear would be useless held in one hand.

Lately, I have been noticing a few examples of Aspis, photos and ancient art, that have a notch in both sides. It looks to me like it could be used as a spear rest. Perhaps interlocking from two men side by side. Can anyone comment on that?

Even with shorter spears, I have a hard time imagining how hoplites could maintain a threatening phalanx with a shield and a spear, unless there was some way to really stabilize the spears and apply force behind them. Otherwise, the tips could be knocked aside with ease.
Rich Marinaccio
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#21
I guess you are referring to the Beotian shields. People speculate that they were evolution of the Mycenean 8-shaped or the "Dipylon" type. In theory they eased the use of under-arm thrust but I do not know how tru is that. They were discarded arround 550 B.C in favor of the Argolic hoplon.
They remained painted on the round hoplon of the Beoteans as a defining sighn. Omly some Median troop curried them up to Alexanders time and then they dissapear from history.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#22
Khairete,
my spear is around 7.4 foot ( unless it has shrunk) the shaft is thickish and a little heavy for me.
I just managed that one handed.....unless a really bad back day...(back to physio, etc, again at the moment) Sad
So a trained warrior would be able to cope with that, without any problems....
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
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#23
Well cavalrymen were usully aristokrats and trained from childhood so the only real difficulty for us moderns is that we do not have alifetine to master various weapons.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#24
Quote:I agree with those that say that an 18 foot spear would be useless held in one hand.

Lately, I have been noticing a few examples of Aspis, photos and ancient art, that have a notch in both sides. It looks to me like it could be used as a spear rest. Perhaps interlocking from two men side by side. Can anyone comment on that?

Even with shorter spears, I have a hard time imagining how hoplites could maintain a threatening phalanx with a shield and a spear, unless there was some way to really stabilize the spears and apply force behind them. Otherwise, the tips could be knocked aside with ease.

Yes, they could, but the wielder could as easily avoid the beat attack on his spear shaft and, in a phalanx, you'd be effectively facing up to eight spear points, rather than one; beating one aside merely gives you the opportunity to advance onto another.
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#25
Here's what I'm thinking. How hard would it be for someone, also weilding a spear, by angling it downward from above, or upward from below, to corral a large number of speartips so that his linemates can pour into the gap against the now helpless, tangled phalanx?

With nothing to stabilize the lateral movement of the massed spears, it seems that the formation would be very vulnerable to being rendered both disarmed and immobilized. Imagine the old 2X4 'lumber' gag in silent movies, times 1000.

There's gotta be a trick to it; some basic principles in technique that make it work.
Rich Marinaccio
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#26
Quote:Here's what I'm thinking. How hard would it be for someone, also weilding a spear, by angling it downward from above, or upward from below, to corral a large number of speartips so that his linemates can pour into the gap against the now helpless, tangled phalanx?

With nothing to stabilize the lateral movement of the massed spears, it seems that the formation would be very vulnerable to being rendered both disarmed and immobilized. Imagine the old 2X4 'lumber' gag in silent movies, times 1000.

There's gotta be a trick to it; some basic principles in technique that make it work.

Um, which "old 2x4 'lumber' gag" is that, exactly? The one where someone keeps turning round while holding a long, 2" by 4" post over his shoulder? Obviously, that won't work while you're IN a phalanx - as you'll be clobbering your mates- and, if you step out to try it on the opposing phalanx, you'll be kebabed through 90 degrees before you get properly started!

The kind of trick you suggest has been performed quite successfully, I'm told against Civil War Pike Blocks ( that's THE Civil War, not the later, American re-make :lol: ) but I can't see it working against a phalanx, again because you'd have to deal with three sets of spearheads, each set eighteen inches to three feet behind the preceeding one and much more manoeuvreable than the English pike.

"Collecting" spear-tips can be effective at a very LOCAL level - two or three - but you can't hold them for long, so your mates would have to be expecting the move and trained in exploiting it. In this form, it could, ultimately, have an effect on the whole battle, so it would be worth trying.
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#27
Khairete,
I thought the spear ends were dug into the ground, that is jammed against it. The shields had arm straps didn't they...so you simply slid your arm through and pushed the sarisse or whatever hard into the ground to withstand the shock of the advance troops whilst still having the protection of your sheild, you can move to a certain extent to protect higher or lower, whilst still holding the shaft of the sarisse by sliding your hand up and down.....that would also work for the cavalry using the xyston, who had to aim between the horses ears when charging...effectively they could raise their arms enough to shield from arrows or protect their left side, then draw their Falcatas or whatever when in close combat.
OK I have not practicised this, so it may not actually be that easy....!!!
The Sarmatians used the kontus two handed, but as cataphractii troops, both men, women - yes women, and horses being heavily protected with either horn scale armour on leather backing or hamata squamata...not dissimilar to the Persian/Sassanian clibanarii ...! regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
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#28
45 degree angled spears stuck in the ground is a goud way for the infantry to resist a cavalry charge. Sarmatian catafracts never manage to break steady experienced infantry. The Romans were smart enough to buy them out before their light horse devastate rich lands or their "head-hunting" girlies decide to marry en mass Smile
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#29
Cristina, you're clearly thinking in terms of the Macedonian Phalanx, using the long sarissa, while I'm talking about the Classical phalanx, with it's 7'3"- 9' spears. The two styles of fighting would, in some respects, be radically different, but I suspect that neither style would favour setting the spear in the earth when facing infantry.
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#30
Quote:45 degree angled spears stuck in the ground is a goud way for the infantry to resist a cavalry charge. Sarmatian catafracts never manage to break steady experienced infantry.
Nor did the Sassanids, if the infantry was determined and trained enough. Even very small detachments could stop or hold out against much larger cavalry forces. It somehow never seems to have occurred to these cavalry forces to step down on the ground and thus defeat these small forces...
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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