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Prodromoi
#46
Quote:I.
The non-catafract horsemen would need a shield to be well protected and 2-handed grip would be a problem.
So prodromoi, as unarmoured cavalry, would have been at a disadvantage using the 2handed grip, right?
AKA Inaki
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#47
In my opinion light cavalry has a better chance skirmissing against heavy or catafract cavalry rather than charging head on.
The fresko shows the Prordromos skewering an infantryman.
Again I imagine this tactic used against loose order infantry not formed troops. That means that a Prodromoi charge would have a good chance against Phrygian or Arachosian peltasts not formed sparabara supported by massed archers. To my knowlege Persian catafracts carried lances so a Prodromoi charge against them would be unlikely. But they could easily drive out enemy light or medium cavalry that usualy did not carry lances.
Kind regards
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#48
So, If I understand correctly, you think that prodromoi would use 2handed pikes charging against those weak enemies, but that they would avoid heavy cavalry, but I am not sure how much of an advantage would be a 2handed grip in that situation, as they are fighting units carrying javelins or short spears a normal 1handed lance would be ok, besides the 2handed grip would prevent the use of a shield, most useful fighting missile troops. I really don´t quite picture what kind of tasks would be assigned to this type of cavalry
AKA Inaki
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#49
The historical tasks of light cavarly could be accomplished by men armed this way. Scouting, foraging and raiding all might involve fighting disorganized enemies or comparable bodies of light cavalry. Formed units of heavy cavalry or heavy foot could be avoided. Pursuit of a routed enemy could be very rewarding, for a man with a long lance on an unemcumbered fast horse. The prodromoi would not be in the middle of the battlefield; but maybe at the edges.
Felix Wang
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#50
Also if you had accurate inteligence of the enmy´s strength and disposition you could arm the light cavalry with lances to attack light-non missle formations. If you didn´t shield and javelin and "hit and run" would be the order of the day which is the main role for light cavalry.
Byzantines had also light horse armed with lances, the trapezitoi. so lance had a use even for light horse but under specific circmstances and under proper conditions to be effective.
As I said I think that the reanctors proved that bare back charge with lance is possible. Usually this action would be carried out by heavy horse.
Only under "special conditions" such action would be done by light cavalry
Kind regards
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#51
The prodromoi were also called sarissaoroi, and therefore are assumed to have been armed with the sarissa.

However, were these sarissai identical to those of the infantry. The heavy cavalry was armed with a xyston, which was a double pointed spear. Could it not have been that the sarissa of the prodromoi simply was a single pointed spear with a but end like that of the infantry, but of entirely different dimensions?

That would mean that the prodromos in the Kazanluk tomb might well be armed with a sarissa
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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#52
Quote:The prodromoi were also called sarissaoroi, and therefore are assumed to have been armed with the sarissa.

However, were these sarissai identical to those of the infantry. The heavy cavalry was armed with a xyston, which was a double pointed spear. Could it not have been that the sarissa of the prodromoi simply was a single pointed spear with a but end like that of the infantry, but of entirely different dimensions?

I recall that xyston referred to a cavalry sarissa of c. 3.5 m length.
Flavius Josephus is the only one who uses the word xyston for an infantry spear (Bella Judaica III.95). Is xyston indeed a synonym for dory? I gather the word literally means 'pole' or 'shaft'? Josephus' use of the word xyston is usually translated with pilum, although Wheeler thinks it should be translated with hasta in this case.

That would indeed mean that a xyston could be a one-pointed spear like the hasta, but for the infantry a shorter version than for the cavalry. But, although we don't know the exact length of the hasta, it would not have to mean much shorter.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#53
XYO or XYNO = to grinde - to sharpen

XYSTON = something sharpened.

Ancient sources are "lax" sometimes with their terminology and most possibly at the time of Josephus sarrisa was an anchronism but it possibly lokked or sounded good in literature.

Kind regards
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#54
Khaire,
I was looking at Arsdimicandi site after Comerus mentioned the videos and spotted this....Curiosita 'click on picture'
As far as I can work out from my limited Italian, they are saying it is 6-5th bce Greco Corinthian and depicts the predecessor of the Roman clibanari...complete with Kontus....and something about evidence for prototype lamellar, is that the fellow on the left???
He is obviously the cavalry commander with that transverse crest...
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
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#55
Quote:As far as I can work out from my limited Italian, they are saying it is 6-5th bce Greco Corinthian and depicts the predecessor of the Roman clibanari...complete with Kontus
I would not say predecessor, Roman heavy cavalry did not develop out of Greek heavy cavalry. But both were surely influenced through Central Asian heavy cavalry, the Greeks through their enemies and allies in the East as well as the Romans later.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#56
Ahhh but what a nice transverse crest!
Peter Raftos
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#57
Never read in any book of my library, that "Prodromoi" used ANYTHING else, except "Xyston"!
All Alexander The GREAT's cavalry-men used "Xyston" - except the Thessalians of course; these men used their own type...
aka Romilos

"Ayet`, oh Spartan euandro... koroi pateron poliatan... laia men itin provalesthe,
...dori d`eutolmos anhesthe, ...mi phidomenoi tas zoas. Ouh gar patrion ta Sparta!
"
- The Lacedaimonian War Tune -
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