Pre-Constantinian Church discovered in Israel

[Theodosius the Great]

Christian mosaics were discovered near a prison site and Israeli archeologists discovered they belong to a church dating to the 3rd century. It's possibly the oldest church in all of Israel.


[url:1jx7x5fm]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_sc/israel_ancient_church[/url]

[Carlton Bach]

I have to admit I'm a bit doubtful about the 'fish mosaic'

The BBC's article has a picture, and they are two, and they look too dead and too edible to make convincing Christian symbols.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4 ... 03body.jpg

A secondary-use house church, perhaps? It's still a great find, but I suspect someone at the tourist board spotted an opportunity.

edit: sorry, that link leads to the mosaic inscription. the fish are here:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4 ... 03body.jpg

[Crispvs]

It might be worth bearing in mind that the fish symbol is normally assumed to refer to the miracle of the feeding of the five thousand, where five thousand or more people were fed on food generated from five loaves and two small fishes. The two fish would have to have been dead and presumably gutted in readiness for eating. A mosaic of two dead fish would not necessarily therefore indicate non-Christian subject matter.

Crispvs

[hoplite14gr]

The Fish is reputed to be used as a mystical acronum at the time of presecutions. At least that was waht my school text book was saying.
Ancient Greek for fish ICHTHYS and it supposed to mean:
Iisous = Jesus
CHristos = Christ
THeou = God's
Yios = Son
Sotir = Savior
Is not very "good lookining" in "Greekglish" so
In Grreek - please use Greek windows 1253 to view:
ΙΧΘΥΣ
Ιησούς
Χριστός
Θεού
Υιός
Σωτήρ
A possibility is that if the people used for their worship an abandoned place linked with the Sea dieties then the fish depictions might be older.
Kind regards
Stefanos.

[Johnny Shumate]

What do you folks think about this quote of a Christian centurion?

"Tepper said the most important evidence comes from three inscriptions found in the mosaics. Along the edge of the largest mosaic, featuring at its center the early Christian symbol of two fish, an ancient Greek inscription, roughly translated, reads: "Gaianos, also called Porphyrio, centurion, our brother, having sought honor with his own money, has made this mosaic. Brouti has carried out the work." Tepper said the inscription refers to a Roman officer -- many officers were early converts to Christianity -- who financed the structure's construction.

An inscription on a second mosaic, closer to the base of a pedestal whose use archaeologists have not determined, recalls by name four women from the community.

Tepper said the third inscription is the most archaeologically valuable. It reads: "The God-loving Aketous has offered this table to the God Jesus Christ, as a memorial."

[rkmvca1]

"Gaianos, also called Porphyrio" Porphyrio? The purple one? Didn't purple connote nobility/royalty then? Interesting.

Rich K.

[Praefectusclassis]

Gaianos, also called Porphyrio, centurion, our brother

Sure, could be.

Tepper said the inscription refers to a Roman officer -- many officers were early converts to Christianity -- who financed the structure's construction

Errr, not very likely. Or, depends on what you call 'early'. Hardly before the 4th C. Christians were no good for the army before then, with all that 'I won't kill' an'stuff they made headaches, not good centurios.

[hoplite14gr]

I might dissagree with Jasper here.
Saint Demetrios (patron saint of Thessaloniki) was said to be an aristocratic officer of the Cavalry at the time of Diokletian. I think this is before 4th century if I recall correct.
Perhaps it was more possible to find "cristianized" trrops more likely in the eastern army rather than western units.
Kind regards
Stefanod

[Johnny Shumate]

In Acts chapter 10, Cornelius was NOT commanded to leave the army after conversion...
Johnny

[Praefectusclassis]

Diocletian is 284-305, so at the very start of the 4th C.
Yes, I am familiar with the Biblical centurio. Even if we consider the Bible as a historical source, I'd probably consider him the exception that proves the rule. We have several sources about that problem and if needed, I'll round them up.

[floofthegoof]

I'm a bit suspicious of the dating method. My mom has some old dishware, if her house was dated by archeologists by the crockery, they would come up with a date that was a hundred years too early.

Regarding the fish, do we know an exact cutoff date where fish were not acceptable and only crosses are? Was it a slow shift? Did all churches smash mosiacs with fish and replace them with crosses in the 4th century?

[Marius_Ursus]

I'm a bit suspicious of the dating method. My mom has some old dishware, if her house was dated by archeologists by the crockery, they would come up with a date that was a hundred years too early.

Regarding the fish, do we know an exact cutoff date where fish were not acceptable and only crosses are? Was it a slow shift? Did all churches smash mosiacs with fish and replace them with crosses in the 4th century?

Very good points...very good.

Regarding the cross? There are Christian sects to this day that prefer to use the fish over the cross. Take the Chaldeans for instance.

[Arahne]

Archeologists would never date present time in your house by old dishware sollely, but by mostly used kitchen ware, besides other stuff. This is common sense.

[Carlton Bach]

That inscription - was it actually in Latin? If not, what is the Greek title rendered as 'centurion'? I know 'chiliarchos', but that can also mean other things IIRC. But that as an aside.

What I am wondering is whether this building was always a church, or solely a church. The surviving documents on the persecutions under Valerian and Decius show that there were organised Christian groups, specidically CXhristian burial grounds and dedicated places of worship in the 250s. So at least the noisy surprise surrounding this strikes me as the product of the Israel Tourist Authority. We were bound to find some evidence sooner or later. But we direly need more information about the shape and size of the entire building. House church? Small re-used temple? Baptistery? Maybe even the home of some syncretic faith that adopted Jesus Christ? After all 'God Jesus Christ' (Theos Iesous Christos?) doesn't sound very mainstream to me.

Anyone find more data?

[hoplite14gr]

IN Greek Centurio = EKATONTARCHOS = leader of 100
Chiliarchos = commander of 1000 I do not know to which roman rank it correspondes.
As I said in my previous post the possibility of use of ex-pagan temples stones as building material by Cristian builders is very likely.
As for the reson why some sect use the fish please refer to my previous post.
Kind regards
Stefanos