thoughts on Formations and such

[Tarbicus]

Even Caesar seems to tell us that once the battle started that was it; it was in the hands of the gods and the legionaries. His real skill seems to have been in judging the men's mood that day (where they up for a good fight, and if not he would probably lie about the auspices if necessary?), planning and briefing the officers well on what he wanted to see happen, and then going with the flow nudging the direction of the battle here and there. But it is clear that if the men wanted to get stuck in there was very little he could do about it. I can imagine him seeing a century charging after they threatened to gut the cornicen if he didn't give the signal, rolling his eyes to the heavens, crossing his fingers and saying a little prayer. In a sense he was the perfect manager.

[Luca]

Right.
I put the Flavius' phrase, but in the ancient military literature there are hundreds of situations that make think to similar dynamics.

[SOCL]

"In any event, would the first battle in the HBO/BBC series Rome seem to be a rather accurate look of combat and the relief of the first file during combat? At least as far as expressing or explaining to someone who knows nothing or very little about Roman combat."

As I am short of video footage from 2000 years ago, I was simplyt stating that the ROME series gave an interesting interpretation of troop roatation.

Historically correct? I wouldnt think so

To us amateurs, non re enactors and whom may be attempting to broaden their knowledge on Roman Military tactics it was just a suggestion if not merely a method of visualising the manouvres being diiscussed.

for someone who hasnt experienced combat, I would even go as far as saying, voice commands in the field, with barbarians shouting, the clanging of swords & shields, I would pretty much have a wild guess that trumpets or even a whistle could have been used....then again much the way it was depicted on that non historical tv series....now what was its name?

So, Saul, if re enacting Romans is your thing, I think that's great, and I imagine you live and breathe it, even better....twas just putting in my five cents worth. I didnt even ask for the change!

:? ? ?

Does anyone know of any vendors currently making/selling these whistles? Would be interesting to get my hands on one and try it out in mock-combat.

[Luca]

If just to test you can use a modern one. Just remember to remove the internal small sphere if any.

I can assure that the sounds is loud, but as anyone know, if your mind is busy also a cannon hit could be not heard....

[RUBICON]

Luca makes sense. excuse my ignorance, as re enactors, how do you conduct military movements now? Are they by voice command?

Im intrigued that if battle formations and attack tactis are such a vital part of Roman warfare, how come this is such a hot topic or is part of re enacting set routine drills?

Since inspired by Sauls comments. Ive researchhed a few websites that seem to show many mock battles between re enactors, do these go to such lengths to incorporate the topic being discussed or as Tarbicus suggested, once the battle starts.....

I would imagine, a helmet would do much to muffle any sound let alone above the clanging of metal weapons?

[Luca]

We use both vocal and trumphet orders.
We used whistles just with ArsDimicandi years ago, but only once.

For vocal orders I believe this is the main way they were done. About this the best book is the "Strategikon" written in the VI cent. AD by Maurizio Emperor of the Eastern Empire.
Yes it a very late period and that book contains many things related to the warfare of their time, but it is also clear that many of the statements in that book come from the ancient roman military tradition as, this is the case, the most of commands in latin, I mean "vocal". Latin was no more used in those countries and this demonstrates how much the roman traditions are still strong in the eastern provinces.

In my experience what I said in the previous messages was verified: after the engagement there is no way to change. People is so much involved in the fighting that even if you try to shout into their ears you don't get their attention.
When we were testing it with A.D., in fact this problem was bypassed because it is the companion in the second row that phisically pull you in the rear by using the gladius baldric when ordered, but normal baldrics are too fair and they use to broke. A.D. fixed also this problem by using 1.5/2 inches wide baldrics made with very thick leather.
Please A.D. people confirm if I am right. These observations are three years old.

[RUBICON]

I would imagine that a well drilled disciplined army as was that of the romans, once in teh confudion of battle woudl rely on experienced veterans to maintain some sort of rigidity amongst the ranks to adhere to their training.

I agree once the battle was started, the adrenalin, the need for self preservation would overtake all other to an extent that hearing vocal commands would be difficult.

I guess the centurions had a difficult job to maintain order. There are many references of the legionairies wanting to turn and run in such difficult situations, but we are all aware of the fate that awaited those who did turn. Very interesting...

During these mock battles, do you ever stage totally unplanned battles bewteen groups, whereby investigating how quickly a group could form up to face an attacking enemy or ambush as was with Varus? I know this would be difficult to stage but I imagine organising a group to go on the march and expect enemy attack somewhere?

It woudl be amazing to measure and or test a man's nerve in such a situation and or facing a 100,000 srong barbarian line.

[Luca]

One thing it is clearly impossible to test: "the fear to die". Yes, we have tons of adrenaline but the feeling is much different from who can die.

About the discipline, we always think about a very well organized army, with ordered ranks... but we are speaking of human beings with all the psicological troubles and differences from man to man. In fact ancients wrote always about brave soldiers, but also about codardy and lazy legionaries that never want to train.
I use to believe much more the second, and consider the first mainly propaganda, because I think to know human nature.
But I won't to say romans were not organized, they were. But also the armies, any army in any time, live with miths also about their own traditions.

[SOCL]

Also realize that legionaries had a certain incentive to stay: if they ran, many would be executed (if my memory serves me correct, 1 legionary out of every 10).

Once in the din of combat, though, it really is quite difficult to hold a line together. I believe there is an old saying that "no plan survives first contact with the enemy" and this holds true for the Roman legions (and re-enactors) as the fellows at the recent Castra Romana in South Carolina can atest to by our slaughter at the hands of damned barbarians. :lol:

As for hearing commands, the crash of shields is what really makes it difficult to hear a thing. The helmets actually do not cover your ears for the very reason you need to hear voice commands (which, incidentally, is what we use during drill, though the commands vary slightly from legion to legion), hence why I'm planning to make my own historically-based whistles, to test how they work when drilled on what specific blows of the whistle mean. It works on dogs, so it should work on something as wretched as legionaries, right? :roll:

Most pre-battle briefings go, "We're going to do this and go after them"...and then someone gets slaughtered. We also sometimes send barbarian re-enactors into the woods and say we're coming after them, so then they are to ambush us, basically with the point of seeing how well we respond. It is actually loads of fun.

As for the matter of knowing what is correct and what is not, there is a good reason we call this "experimental archaeology." Basically, in the process of doing these re-enactments we are seeing what would seem logical and what they would have likely done put in certain situations. In that sense, though, we also acknowledge that most of us are not experienced tacticians/combat veterans and that we are "experimenting" based on existing, not finding truths. Further, we also acknowledge that our mindsets are far removed from the Roman mindset, so anything we find to be "logically what they would have done" is always taken with a pinch (or pitcher) of salt.

Enjoy.

[Crispvs]

Thinking for a moment about lulls in battle, would it not be possible to engineer a momentary lull at a convenient time by the application of a heavy and well aimed missile barrage from the third and fourth ranks? Such a barrage, if unexpected by the enemy, would cause some confusion in their line and might cause them to drop back slightly.
Two known facts are relevant here:

A) We know that the Romans trained a lot and so would have practiced whatever move they were supposed to make.

B) From what we know of Roman equipment, they were hardly short of man portable missile power.

Perhaps the soldiers heading for the fighting line left their pila with their fellows in the rear ranks, who could keep the middle ranks supplied for any barrages which might be called for (I am assuming here that in the interests of the good health of the front ranks, javelins would be thrown from the middle, rather than rear, ranks. In addition to the soldiers own pila, I would consider the possibility of spare javelins behind the line which could be fed into a unit as needed. Perhaps I am being naive here, but I find it curious that in this lengthy thread about exchanging ranks, no-one has so far mentioned the effect of missiles on an enemy or the specific conditions under which they might be employed.

Crispvs

[SOCL]

Well, we do know that every legionary carried two pila. The first rank (and likely second) threw there's, then drew gladii, at which time hand-to-hand combat would ensue. Your idea of having a well-aimed volley of pila at the right moment likely would have caused mass confusion among the enemy, perhaps enough to allow the forward ranks to change out with rear ranks. Having...played with pila, scuta, and gladii, I can atest to how scary it is to just charge carrying all of that equipment, continuously worrying that you'll fall forward and impale yourself. So, unless you really love the fellows behind you, I wouldn't be so confident as to believe that they could throw pila over my head at the enemy directly in front of me without impaling me in the process. Then again, I'm speaking from my point of view and not that of a highly-disciplined (by ancient standards) Roman legionary.

In any event, if the first lines were to withdraw to exchange with rear lines, the process of doing so would likely yield one rank's width in ground every time this was done. What I am envisioning are these Roman lines doing "battleship backsteps" as they fight (when battleships would open fire on ground-targets during the world wars, the sheer power of their shots would push them back in the water until they would eventually have to reposition either the ship or the guns). Does this seem likely for the Roman legions whilst in combat? :?

[RUBICON]

Saul has a point...in such closed ranks teh carrying and throwing of pila seems a bit of hit and miss situation. If the first line was involved in close contact combat, sending missiles would ( i assume) force back those of the enemy not involved up close as surely aiming for the front line woudl risk your own legionaries???

Anyway, the missiles across the breadth of a legion, i also assume would be30 m intervals? is there any reference to the distance bewteen ballista etc?

This last claim I would actually look for Saul to determine as he has doen some combat re enactment.

So the lull in combat would not be where the enemy is engaged, therfore troop rotation at the front line would still be a 'sticky' situation. I know HBO ROME is by no means accurate, but their interpretation and the way they depicted it was quite clever.

[Tarbicus]

But if you are willing to give a couple of yards of ground to create a new front rank, that means your new front line is fresh and eager while the enemy's is tired and in some cases wounded. I'm sure, if that were the case, you could regain the ground comparatively easily, and perhaps a bit more?

[SOCL]

Saul has a point...in such closed ranks teh carrying and throwing of pila seems a bit of hit and miss situation. If the first line was involved in close contact combat, sending missiles would ( i assume) force back those of the enemy not involved up close as surely aiming for the front line woudl risk your own legionaries???

Anyway, the missiles across the breadth of a legion, i also assume would be30 m intervals? is there any reference to the distance bewteen ballista etc?

This last claim I would actually look for Saul to determine as he has doen some combat re enactment.

You flatter me. I am by no means an expert in this sort of thing. Perhaps Mike or Edge can be better, or one of the other, more experienced re-enactors.

So the lull in combat would not be where the enemy is engaged, therfore troop rotation at the front line would still be a 'sticky' situation. I know HBO ROME is by no means accurate, but their interpretation and the way they depicted it was quite clever.

Well, ROME isn't terribly inaccurate, it merely assumes some things by what is implied in the source material. Speculation doesn't make something inaccurate, it merely makes it unrealiable as a source--a dead end, if you will.

[RUBICON]

Can someone recommend a good tactical military website, In keeping with the discussion, how would the line know you were going to give ground for the volley of missiles coming...back to the command issue.

Do you mean that the legionaries would move back, opening up the space bewteen themselves and the enemy, the missiles come through and then they would advance forward while the enemy is under fire?

Damn I need to learn some warfare tactical terms