Roman archers wearing lorica segmentata

[Olaf The Viking]

Is this corect? Roman archers dressed like legionary with lorica segmentata?


P.S. Please don't banished me to the games and models corner because it is a theoretical question and I hardly get an answer here.

[Praefectusclassis]

Why wouldn't it be? The idea that Roman archers all looked like Syrians is just as tenuous, maybe even more. Most archers on tombstones have themselves depicted as any other Roman soldier (have a look in the imagebase).

[Olaf The Viking]

Thank you! I looked into my Osprey books and I didn't find any. Can they be used for Dacians wars diorama?

[ARudling]

On a purely practical point the shoulder guards would tend to snag the bowstring as you shot, so mail would be prefered - although saying that as has been pointed out above, its not impossible.

[Olaf The Viking]

I was thinking the lorica segmentata wasn't so confortable to wear and if I would be an archer I would prefer something lighter. On the other hand chainmail is not so strong against enemie's arrow's.

[Marius_Ursus]

I was thinking the lorica segmentata wasn't so confortable to wear and if I would be an archer I would prefer something lighter. On the other hand chainmail is not so strong against enemie's arrow's.

The lorica segmentata is deceptively comfortable. The one I made with Hibernicus of Leg IX was very, very mobile with plenty of shoulder girdle mobility. While I never pretended a Roman archer, I have practiced archery, and I have worn a segmentata, and it doesn't take any stretch of imagination for me to picture an archer wearing a seg.

Hope this helps!

[Scaevola]

An addendum: Since Legionaries were trained in the aspects of warfare outside of infantry like riding and archery it makes sense that one could see an archer wearing Segmentata. However, until I can try to shoot in my armor I can't say how comfortable or practicle it is.

[Flavius Promotus]

I have once done a little archery practice with a segmentata, and it works, although it's a little awkward. Not the best method in my opinion, but not impossible.

Greets

[Olaf The Viking]

I knew it, I read somewhere:

"One figure does present a problem. Roman archers were almost always auxiliaries, and were usually of Eastern origin. They would have worn mail rather than the plate cuirass, and their appearance would have depended on their ethnic origin more than anything else, as would the appearance of the bow. Consequently the figure of a full legionnaire using a bow has no historical foundation and is useless."

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Rev ... C&code=224

And you can see them in action here:
link from old RAT

More photos and info:
link from old RAT

[floofthegoof]

I strongly believe that the idea of specialized troop types was invented with computer games. I have never read an ancient source of any battle where people didn't pick up whatever weapon that would be useful to them in the given circumstances. I have read many accounts of Roman archers who were not auxileries.

If you're defending a walled city, you're an archer like any other. When the enemy scaled the wall, then you were a swordsman like any other. Not a big deal at all to train a soldier in archery and swordsmanship, as he will probably need both. That you are an expert in archery takes nothing away from your sword skill or vice versa.

You can't afford to have half your army sitting idle because they aren't trained in the weapon needed. You don't want swordsmen sitting there waiting for the enemy to scale the wall. You dont want archers trying to shoot point blank in the battle line when they need to contribute in keeping the line steady like everyone else.

You often read of battles where there were no archers. But that's not because the people there didn't know how to shoot or didn't have a bow they could bring, it's because they expected to be best employed to fight hand to hand.

[Olaf The Viking]

I agree with you 100%.

[GreenArrow]

Hi Guys,

Been following this one with interest, so much so that I decided to register so I could post a reply... (please be nice to me first time around)

I'm a keen (and pretty competent) archer, but also loved history for years (grew up just by Hadrian's Wall).

My latest project is to combine these interests, so I'm looking at the Composite Bow. In addition to being in the middle of building a proper composite (horn-wood-sinew) bow, I have now got the knack of shooting off the thumb (I use one of those replica horse-bows)- i.e. with the Eastern draw the Romans used (note the thumb-rings found in the Hadrian's Wall forts- Cavoran I think, maybe Housteads or Vindolanda, I forget).

Anyway point is, when you shoot off the thumb, you are much less likely to get hung up in the string. In fact, you don't need a bracerd (armguard) shooting this way, and I find it is the only technique I can shoot with a thick bulky fleece on.

So I'd suggest that the lorica segmentata would not present any impediment to shooting... and that any slight problems could be overcome by shifting to a different reference point for the release (thumb on back of cheek/lower jaw rather than down on chest- works just as well and is more accurate).

Finally, another view on Roman archery as practised by re-enactment groups. I am coming to the conclusion that the little Scythian bows used (Grozer et al) are not really the proper type. Note the bone Siyah (bow-ear) plating found at Carvoran and other places. That suggests a design where the bow had lengthened, and ridid Sihays were being used- the next development of the Scythian, and lcoser to the "Hun/Avar" type bows.

My next horn bow will be Roman replica-the horn plates tell me alot (hopefully I can get measurements), and I am now researching cattle and horn types available to Romans (horn type/length determines limb design).

Which leads me to a question: any thoughts on quivers? The drawings show them on back (presumably as a result of the archers tombstone), but I wonder; all other Eastern peoples of that era used the "Closed Nomad" quiver (Scythians the Gorytus) It would be interesting if they did, as that would make the Roman archers the only ones ever to use back quivers in real life (forget Robin Hood, Henry V's archers didn' use quivers).

Sorry if it's got a bit off topic folks, but I'm a bit of an anorak both with Romans and Archery, and it seems to be an under-researched area. Any thoughs from others?

[Martin Moser]

Hi,

first off, I did shoot my bow with my segmentata on and it is possible, though chain mail is certainly better suited for it. More disturbing than the segmentata I found the cheek pieces and neckguard of my helmet, in fact.
Have never seen or heard of contemporary sources showing/saying that it was "regularly" done, though. If anybody knows some sources here, please cite them!

Sorry if it's got a bit off topic folks, but I'm a bit of an anorak both with Romans and Archery, and it seems to be an under-researched area. Any thoughs from others?

GreenArrow, if you haven't done so already, I think you want to read:

Coulston, J.C. Roman Archery Equipment. in Bishop, M.C. (Ed.). The Production and Distribution of Roman Military Equipment. BAR International Series 275, 1985. pp 220-366

My latest project is to combine these interests, so I'm looking at the Composite Bow. In addition to being in the middle of building a proper composite (horn-wood-sinew) bow, I have now got the knack of shooting off the thumb (I use one of those replica horse-bows)- i.e. with the Eastern draw the Romans used (note the thumb-rings found in the Hadrian's Wall forts- Cavoran I think, maybe Housteads or Vindolanda, I forget).

On that at least for the time before the 4th century A.D. we cannot be sure, it seems: "To the writer's knowledge no clear examples of bone thumb-rings have been found in securely dated Roman contexts..." (in Coulston, p.276, see above) Coulston writes about 3 pages on the possibilities for that release based on finds and surviving texts (pp. 275-278, ibid.).

So, while I will not deny the validity of that release I think we cannot be certain of its exclusiveness for the Romans.

cheers,

Martin

PS: Anybody knows any other relyable sources?

[ratty]

Hi,

first off, I did shoot my bow with my segmentata on and it is possible, though chain mail is certainly better suited for it. More disturbing than the segmentata I found the cheek pieces and neckguard of my helmet, in fact.
Have never seen or heard of contemporary sources showing/saying that it was "regularly" done, though. If anybody knows some sources here, please cite them!

Sorry if it's got a bit off topic folks, but I'm a bit of an anorak both with Romans and Archery, and it seems to be an under-researched area. Any thoughs from others?

GreenArrow, if you haven't done so already, I think you want to read:

Coulston, J.C. Roman Archery Equipment. in Bishop, M.C. (Ed.). The Production and Distribution of Roman Military Equipment. BAR International Series 275, 1985. pp 220-366

My latest project is to combine these interests, so I'm looking at the Composite Bow. In addition to being in the middle of building a proper composite (horn-wood-sinew) bow, I have now got the knack of shooting off the thumb (I use one of those replica horse-bows)- i.e. with the Eastern draw the Romans used (note the thumb-rings found in the Hadrian's Wall forts- Cavoran I think, maybe Housteads or Vindolanda, I forget).

On that at least for the time before the 4th century A.D. we cannot be sure, it seems: "To the writer's knowledge no clear examples of bone thumb-rings have been found in securely dated Roman contexts..." (in Coulston, p.276, see above) Coulston writes about 3 pages on the possibilities for that release based on finds and surviving texts (pp. 275-278, ibid.).

So, while I will not deny the validity of that release I think we cannot be certain of its exclusiveness for the Romans.

cheers,

Martin

PS: Anybody knows any other relyable sources?

although its not a bone thumbring a leather archers thumbguard was found at vindolanda

The Vindolanda leather collection is already the largest of Roman leather anywhere in the empire and it is growing at a startling rate each year. The collection is dominated by footwear - boots, shoes, sandals, slippers, bath clogs of varying different sizes and types, some of which are clearly women and children. There is also the Roman ceremonial horse chamfron and numerous other leather goods including buckets, bags, purses and an archer's thumb guard.

source
www.vindolanda.com

they may mean also that this was a glove part that was worn on the bow hand but again this would support the evidence that the thumb draw was used.eg shooting from the other side of the bow compared to the mediterranian draw,which is off the fist.

writing tablets and other items in the same place have been dated to AD 90 to the 120's

[Peroni]

Vegetius tells us that all legionary soldiers trained in archery, slinging and riding.

Now, surely not all these soldiers wore mail or scale?