Chariots

[floofthegoof]

I recently saw the movie, '300 Spartans' from the 60's, and they had a scene with some attacking chariots. I realize they were just actors, but the whole thing looked extremely awkward. They would be great for carting stuff around, but I just can't imagine how someone would effectively use a chariot in a battle. It looks like it would be rough going on all but the smoothest roads. Pull off to the shoulder at a running pace and the rider would be vaulted into the air.

[Marcus Mummius]

Salve,

I know warriors often dismounted from the chariot after they had reached the enemy. Some chariots where however used in battle. Why would they else put scythes on the wheels? The Egyptians often used chariots but they did not lack open terrain to use them. I think a good chariot would be a formidable weapon on open ground.

Valete

[floofthegoof]

Seems like it would be very tricky to stay on if the horses ran over a dead body or a wounded man. What sort of weapon would you use? We often see archers depicted using chariots, which makes sense, but I wonder how a melee weapon might be used. It would have to be specific to that purpose I think.

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

if i remember correctly, the mycenians used long lances in their chariots.

Ancient egyptians used chariots like modern tanks - fast moving and hitting. I think that they used chariots and NOT cavalry because they didn´t have saddles.
A real down-side for chariots is that you must have leveled terrain (Darius III leved the terrain on several battle-sites because he wanted to use chariots.)

[Dan Howard]

You are confusing heavy chariots of the iron age with light chariots of the bronze age. There is nothing to suggest that the Mykenaians used long lances with their chariots. In fact Littauer and Crouwell have demonstrated that it is impossible to fight in this fashion. It is likely that the Mykenaians used chariots just like the Hittites, Egyptians, Aryans, Canaanites, Chinese, etc. That is, as mobile archery platforms, not as "modern tanks". Drews has comprehensively argued this using the work of Littauer and Crouwell, Beal, etc. Read "End of the Bronze Age," he is very convincing. Chariots were not used for "shock tactics" until well into the iron age. Light chariots were superceded by horse archers. They then evolved into heavy chariots for shock tactics. I am thinking they were specifically developed to upset the phalanx formation. These heavy chariots were superceded by heavy cavalry (the Macedonians were among the first to utilise heavy cavalry).Saddles had nothing to do with it. It is perfectly possible (though more difficult) to charge an opponent with a lance while riding bareback.

[Muzzaguchi]

Chariot warfare is an issue of major debate.

There does indeed seem to be some evidence of Mycenean use of long lances from chariots such as here: http://home.att.net/~a.a.major/charstel.jpg

However, the descriptions in Homer of battle taxis don't help the whole debate of how they were used - certainly some of the antics he has them get up to are impossible with light chariots.

At the same time Late Geometric art from the 8th century show that the Greeks at the period Homer wrote were familiar with a variety of chariot styles some of which could be deemed to be heavy and thus possibly capable to the deeds assigned to them in the Iliad. Also there are only two scenes in all surviving LG art which depict chariots in combat which is an argument in favour of the use of battle taxi in the eigth century.

However, with the Hoplite reform the use of Chariots (and even, some would argue, cavalry) in Greek warfare fell into total disuse.

Drews' arguments are very forceful but I think he goes too far. I have a work in Russian (which, unfortunately, I cannot read) on chariots in Ancient warfare by Alexander Neofidkin published in St Petersburg in 2001. I have been in touch with him and will try and get his ideas on 'the latest' thoughts on the subject.

Cheers

Murray

[Dan Howard]

If you look closely at that image you'll find no spear at all. The straight line is the reins. The guy in front could just as easily be a friendly chariot runner as an enemy.

[Alexandr K]

Hi,
perhaps this free-to-download MA thesis could be of interest:

http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available ... 03-164515/

Greetings
Alexandr

[hoplite14gr]

Homer describes Patroklus chariot charge.
The only Bronze Armies that used the chariot for charge are the Mycenean Greeks and the Hittites. The others used it as an archery platform.
The appearence of formed pike armed infantry seriously chalenged the mounted troops supremacy.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Conal]

Is there any evidence for scythe chariots ?

[hoplite14gr]

In Mycenean Clasical Greek use no.
Seleukidic army had them. And the Pontic army of Mithridates.
All recorded cases of skythed chariot use ended in disaster.
Kind regards

[Robert Vermaat]

In Mycenean Clasical Greek use no.
Seleukidic army had them. And the Pontic army of Mithridates.

Did not Darius III also use them?

[hoplite14gr]

In Gaugamela there was a charge that according to historians was dealt as shown in both early and late version of the Alexander films.
Xenophon also witnessed the eqully failed charge of Artaxerxes chariots.
Kind regards

[Nathan Ross]

Is there any evidence for scythe chariots ?

Plutarch, in his life of Sulla, describes the scythed chariots of the Pontic army:

Taxiles, the general of Mithridates, had come down from Thrace and Macedonia with a hundred thousand footmen, ten thousand horse, and ninety scythe-bearing four-horse chariots... The air could not contain the shouts and clamour of so many nations forming in array. At the same time also the pomp and ostentation of their costly equipment was not without its effect and use in exciting terror; indeed, the flashing of their armour, which was magnificently embellished with gold and silver, and the rich colours of their Median and Scythian vests, intermingled with bronze and flashing steel, presented a flaming and fearful sight as they surged to and fro, so that the Romans huddled together behind their trenches, and Sulla, unable by any reasoning to remove their fear, and unwilling to force them into a fight from which they wanted to run away, had to sit still and endure as best he could the sight of the Barbarians insulting him with boasts and laughter

However, for all the 'costly equipment' the Romans find the chariots easy to deal with:

Sulla promptly charged upon them while they were in confusion, and by abridging the space between the armies with the speed of his approach, robbed the scythe-bearing chariots of their efficiency. For these are of most avail after a long course, which gives them velocity and impetus for breaking through an opposing line but short starts are ineffectual and feeble, as in the case of missile which do not get full propulsion. And this proved to be true now in the case of Barbarians. The first of their chariots were driven along feebly and engaged sluggishly, so that the Romans, after repulsing them, clapped their hands and laughed and called for more, as they are wont to do at the races in the circus

(The above has been quoted before on this board, I know, but such great scenes deserve repetition!)

It does suggest that the principal use of scythe-chariots was to shock and awe the enemy - also that they were most useful against close-packed men, rather than the more fluid Roman formations.

[Dan Howard]

The only Bronze Armies that used the chariot for charge are the Mycenean Greeks and the Hittites. The others used it as an archery platform.

Actually Beal's PhD thesis argues very effectively that the Hittites did not use the chariot for charging. They used it as an archery platform like everyone else (including the Mykenaians).

Full citation: Beal, Richard. "The Organisation of the Hittite Military" PhD dissertation, University of Chicago, 1986.