Roman Battle Tactics

[Andy De Cusati]

Hi. This is my first post so I hope I have done everything right. Please pardon any mistakes.

I know better than to get my history from TV but while watching the first episode of "Rome" on HBO it showed a battle in Gaul. During the fight a Centurion would blow a whistle and the men in the front rank would rotate out of position and move toward the rear of the formation while the men in the next rank would step up. This happened frequently. Is this correct? I have often wondered how things worked.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Andy

[Goffredo]

Hi there
I don't know if centurions had whistles. In all the noise that an ancient battle could cause I wonder if a whistle could be even be useful. But I am convinced that rotations did occur in a controlled way and that legionaries were trained to do it. I think centurions played a role in calling rehersed movements. Some say that lulls would naturally take place. I think that lulls should be regulated and not be allowed to occur naturally as people tie at different rates according to constitution, emotion, experience. A bunch of people randomly placed together to fight in a tight formation will not behave predictably if each person cannot get relief. Instead a group of men that has trained in ways that allows each person to get substituted, BERFORE he collapses out of fatigue or from wounds, is more robust, and pscychologically too.

I do hope this thread continues but I suggest we move the emphasis away from the issue of the whistle because if some expert pops up and says "There is aboslutely no evidence for whistles in ancient literature or in archeological finds!" then this thread will die! Instead the questions should be: did the romans make line changes; how did they manage the line change? If not line changes then what? If line changes then how? If not whistles then what?
Never let an expert cut you down without asking him to teach and/or suggest something.

[Andy De Cusati]

Thank you for your quick response. Yes, lets drop the whistle. I would not want the thread to end as I would really like to explore this question and learn something about the Romans did this.

I would think any signal to rotate ranks (if that is what they did) would have to be by sound of somekind. I think a visual signal would not work because in order to see it the legionary would have to take his eyes off his enemy from time to time to look in the direction from where the signal would be given. Maybe there was no signal of any kind and as an individual became tired he slowly moved back until the man behind him could take his place.

Andy

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi there
But I am convinced that rotations did occur in a controlled way and that legionaries were trained to do it. I think centurions played a role in calling rehersed movements. Some say that lulls would naturally take place. I think that lulls should be regulated and not be allowed to occur naturally as people tie at different rates according to constitution, emotion, experience. A bunch of people randomly placed together to fight in a tight formation will not behave predictably if each person cannot get relief. Instead a group of men that has trained in ways that allows each person to get substituted, BERFORE he collapses out of fatigue or from wounds, is more robust, and pscychologically too.

have you tried it? In a lull, it might work, but during full contact, such relief is difficult. And if you do it with a complete first rank, confusion follows and the enmy can finish you off. I know some like to think (and they practise it) that whole ranks were relieved at once, but I doubt this was possible. Individuals, yes. During a lull, sure.

[Cobra]

In my experience, fighting with the SCA, we've managed to rotate our spearmen from the second rank to the front and shieldmen from the front to the second rank or vice-versa very quickly and effectively and on command but we train all year round at this sort of thing. I've never seen an enemy unit we were up against charge us during this change because it happens so quickly and we still pose an immediate threat because we never put our backs to the enemy. I would have to say that it would be possible for whole Roman front line to do this if they did it correctly, seeing as how we can do it.
Wouldn't really take away from the meat-grinder/buzzsaw effect if the second rank charges in fast enough.

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Yes cobra, our group practice an hypothetic "turn over" between the first and the second rank. the movement soldier is quick and it is an individual fact. recently we have "up dated" the turn over system and we have try it with any experts in roman and shield technics of fighting (collin Richards, Brice Lopez Acta experimentation). Now the two soldier come to the first rank, he advance directly on the ennemy in front, and shot with the low side of the shield the face of the enemy (the shield is in horizontal position)...

Argh my bad english... you now, our theoric perspective is that the late roman soldier and army in the IVe and Ve century is again an significative individual swordman and a principal offensive army in formation...

Near a new publication on this subject and one new conférence of the herculiani team in the international occidental martial art forum and colloq at Dijon 2006. Sorry in french...

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Note: The IVe and Ve century AD. The reenactement of the herculiani is an legio palatina. In fact we work on an late roman heavy infantry: Armati or antesignani or again antepilani under the ordines primi orders...

[Robert Vermaat]

Vale Dammianus,
I hoped you would react to my message!
So you changed your changeover? Great! From what I read, that sounds very interesting!

[Tarbicus]

I don't know if centurions had whistles. In all the noise that an ancient battle could cause I wonder if a whistle could be even be useful.

Whistles are used by the refereee in football stadiums packed with thousands of people shouting and chanting, sometimes to a near deafening level. Even the crowd hears the final whistle to declare the match over. It's just one of those tools that can get people's attention.

On a management training course years ago (no, don't groan) I had to guide someone who was blindfolded into a 'sheep pen' with no other method of communication than a whistle. We weren't even allowed to pre-arrange signals (one blow for yes, two for no), it was all gut feeling. It was in the open, with low hanging trees in the way, and ditches to fall into. I got him in by just going with my gut and 'teaching' him in his first steps (it was a weird thing - it can be done), and I even got him to duck down below a low branch by making him just stop and start - he realised there was a problem and eventually got the idea. A whistle is a very impressive thing in situations that require control in 'blind' situations.

Cheers.

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Yes Valerius... it's true. It is most stronger than me...
Not for squize you but just to say my point of view. Yes, we have some new modifications to our system but we must try and work again!

[Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus]

I have not seen the show but that kind of battle tactics sound more like the manipular legions of the earlier republic instead of the cohort ones of Caesar.

[Tiberius Claudius Vindex]

I don't know if centurions had whistles. In all the noise that an ancient battle could cause I wonder if a whistle could be even be useful.

I know the Red Army used them during World War II and if Soviet troops could hear them above the explosions of artillery and gunfire of a modern battlefield, I would not be suprised to learn that they could be heard over the crashing of shields and swords.

[doubtingthomas]

I havent seen the show,but Roman units moving to the sound of whistles seems plausible.Dont forget the roman brass band either
Doubtingthomas a.k.a. Tommy Smith.

[Alexandr K]

Hi,
I don't know of any evidence for whistles in Roman battles. But there is plenty of evidence for horns and tubes and flags used for signalling. So, isn't it more probable that these instruments were used by Romans in battles?
Greetings
Alexandr

[Vincula]

Aparently the whistle was invented in 1883!!
See [url:33swbtwc]http://www.constabulary.com/faqs/w-faq.htm[/url]