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The fall of the roman military power
#61
Quote:Can you be more specific which peoples you see with great cavalry armies?
Not just referring to people like the Huns whose cavalry gave them a serious advantage over equal numbers of infantry-based forces, but simply the increasing use of cavalry such as by the Goths at Adrianople, where their arrival on the scene was decisive.
Robert Stroud
The New Scriptorium
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#62
Publius Primitivo sal.

aue!

I think there's a misunderstanding in the role of cavalry in the ancient times, and its role on the battlefield, even for the late Empire.

Cavalry could not operate in big numbers, because the distance needed to give room to the knights and horses for maneuvering was way bigger than the typical infantry formations (from probably most open to more closed, light infantry slingers, javalineers, archers, late Empire millenium (and centuria), Imperial and late Republican cohort, early Republican (Livy style) hastatii, and then classical hoplite and Makedonian style phalanxes and Republican principes).

Until really big horses were breeded, which allowed heavier cavalry (and allowed to move from chariot to prodromoi style light cavalry, to Parthian archers style cavalry, to Macedonian style heavier ones, to Bactrian and Sogdian catraphractae, to even heavier Sarmatian cataphractae) cavalry was seriously challenged against any heavy infantry formation that was holding its ground, and only when formations routed, or by an attack from behind (you cannot actually make a flank attack from the side, because you will have two or three horses maximum to attack the whole cohors, phalanx lines, etc...) in a |= kind of figure , but you could attack from a diagonal, so if the infantry is facing the 12 on the clock, you cannot attack them from the 3 0'clock, but you could do so from the 5...

Again, frontal assault against a wall of pointy, shiny things that hurt was not possible, the horses simply stopped and ran away, therefore until very late, cavalry was only useful to harass, try to force a rout on the enemy formation by attacking its rear flank, or by pursuing the fleeing enemies.

Cavalry was extremely expensive, horses only basically served for war, which limited its usefulness to most people but the richer in agrarian societies, or to nomads who could afford its cost by actually moving and foraging or assaulting for resources... Specifically, when the Tervingi and the Greutungi (with the help of some Alans and Huns) were attacked by Emperor Valens, its cavalry numbers must have been really low, as we know the Goths were basically starving and rampaging through Thrace and Attica Provinces (Thrakia, Makedonia and Boeotia, basically) in search of enough food to support their troops and cvilians, therefore the only cavalry present in the field must have been the highest nobility ones, and the one given by the latest arrivals of Greutungi, Alans and Huns. Not big numbers at all, because they didn't have food enough, even after the assault to Marcianopolis...

However, it's arrival was met by very tired troops, disorganized, who weren't expecting such big numbers of Goths (Valens was probably not aware of the arrival of big numbers of Greutungi during 377) which formed their infantry near the barricades, forcing the Romans to lose formation coherence which led to very weak flanks. When the cavalry arrived, suddenly, through the smoke, shouting like barbarians (sorry for the pun :-) ) ) and in numbers they never expected, troops tired (exhausted) and half-baked under the Summer sun, they simply gave way...

Silly, but actually pretty understandable...

We should make some numbers, but I am pretty sure it was as costly to feed a cavalry army of 5,000 horses and knights as to feed a 30,000 infantry army, and then some more... (5 to 1 ratio for men to horse may be a little low, but I don't really know).

Anyway, with these things in mind, what we see is that, as before, strategy , discipline and morale were the key to win a battle, and weapons and types of troops simply the tools to get your goals.

Even for the Huns... :-) )

best regards, uale!
Episkopos P. Lilius Frugius Simius Excalibor, :. V. S. C., Pontifex Maximus, Max Disc Eccl
David S. de Lis - my blog: <a class="postlink" href="http://praeter.blogspot.com/">http://praeter.blogspot.com/
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#63
Quote:You said :
"Even so, the Empire could've expelled the tribes who would later form the Visigoths if only both halves of the Empire cooperated. It almost happened with Stilicho but the East undermined his efforts."- I agree.

Ok, I thought when you said "disaster" that maybe you meant it was irreversable.

Quote:But it all began with the emperor (who's name you use) and his treaty

Yes, but the situation degenerated much further after his death. I think you agree with this also. Actually, you could say it started with Valens. IMO, he's the most culpable. It was his mess that Theodosius tried to clean up.

Quote:In fact Honorius was already 18 years old when his father died

He was the eldest, right ? Ok, I thought he was younger. So, maybe either way he would've been a bad choice had his father lived longer or not. I concede your point.

Quote:But I must say I like this discussion

As do I Big Grin

Quote:It would be much easier for me to discuss in Dutch than in English. I am struggling to put my opinion in clear language.

Wow, I never suspected. I think you're doing great :wink: Here's a karma point for you.

Thank you for the engaging discussion, Severus.
Jaime
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#64
"Cavalry could not operate in big numbers, because the distance needed to give room to the knights and horses for maneuvering was way bigger than the typical infantry formations (from probably most open to more closed, light infantry slingers, javalineers, archers, late Empire millenium (and centuria), Imperial and late Republican cohort, early Republican (Livy style) hastatii, and then classical hoplite and Makedonian style phalanxes and Republican principes). "

An excellent post, but I must disagree about the light infantry formations. Missile troops need space to operate their weapons. This is most marked with a sling - I would guess that slingers need to be space 1.5 -2 meters apart in order to use their weapons, and that spacing is comparable to a horsemen's formation. Archers and even musketeers were vulnerable to being overrun by cavalry - as late as the Napoleonic Wars they could be slaughtered unless the infantry were in well-formed squares (and those men had bayonets, unlike most archers and slingers who didn't carry any spear).
Felix Wang
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#65
Hi

I have just started reading "Barbarians Within the Gates of Rome
Study of Roman Military Policy and the Barbarians, Ca.375-425 AD
Burns, T S" and it looks like it's going give me some more insight in the reasons for the fall of the western roman empire. Is there someone who has already read this book?

"
Quote:Yes, but the situation degenerated much further after his death. I think you agree with this also. Actually, you could say it started with Valens. IMO, he's the most culpable. It was his mess that Theodosius tried to clean up." -

I agree that he had to clean up the mess of Valens. It was Gratian who elevated him to Augustus and who send him also troops to counter the Goths. But what still wonders me is why he didn't deal them a death blow. The Roman Army was still very efficient and capable. Gratian still kept the Rhine and upper Danube frontier in check.

About cavalry I must agree with P. Lilius Frugius Simius but I forgot my source. Great post by the way.
Tot ziens.
Geert S. (Sol Invicto Comiti)
Imperator Caesar divi Marci Antonini Pii Germanici Sarmatici ½filius divi Commodi frater divi Antonini Pii nepos divi Hadriani pronepos divi Traiani Parthici abnepos divi Nervae adnepos Lucius Septimius Severus Pius Pertinax Augustus Arabicus ½Adiabenicus Parthicus maximus pontifex maximus
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#66
Quote:perhaps people like half-criminals

I posted a link to a paper on bandits in ancient Rome in References & Reviews a short while ago. Bandits could certainly be conscripted into military service when caught.

Paper on banditry in Ancient Rome
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#67
Quote:
Quote:perhaps people like half-criminals

I posted a link to a paper on bandits in ancient Rome in References & Reviews a short while ago. Bandits could certainly be conscripted into military service when caught.

Paper on banditry in Ancient Rome

I think that some bandit were conscripted into military service. :wink:
[Image: gaudentius.gif]

Magister Equitum Gaudentius :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:

Valerius/Jorge
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#68
Quote:
Tarbicus:r0oryxv2 Wrote:
Quote:perhaps people like half-criminals
I posted a link to a paper on bandits in ancient Rome in References & Reviews a short while ago. Bandits could certainly be conscripted into military service when caught.
Paper on banditry in Ancient Rome
I think that some bandit were conscripted into military service. :wink:
And why not? Some military fled into banditry like the next guy. And if it was possible for rebels as well as barbarians to be drafted, then why not criminals?

I seem to recall that the British army at times als offered criminals the option to serve time in prison or serve Her Majesty in the army.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#69
Quote:
Lucius Valerius Gaudentiu:15z00a3x Wrote:
Tarbicus:15z00a3x Wrote:
Quote:perhaps people like half-criminals
I posted a link to a paper on bandits in ancient Rome in References & Reviews a short while ago. Bandits could certainly be conscripted into military service when caught.
Paper on banditry in Ancient Rome
I think that some bandit were conscripted into military service. :wink:
And why not? Some military fled into banditry like the next guy. And if it was possible for rebels as well as barbarians to be drafted, then why not criminals?

I seem to recall that the British army at times als offered criminals the option to serve time in prison or serve Her Majesty in the army.

For me perfect, I haven´t said anything. Confusedhock:
[Image: gaudentius.gif]

Magister Equitum Gaudentius :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:

Valerius/Jorge
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#70
'Twas the emoticon, I thought you meant it as a joke... Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#71
Quote:'Twas the emoticon, I thought you meant it as a joke... Big Grin

Don´t worry Robert. :wink:
[Image: gaudentius.gif]

Magister Equitum Gaudentius :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:

Valerius/Jorge
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#72
Quote:
Lucius Valerius Gaudentiu:3jjz4yjs Wrote:
Tarbicus:3jjz4yjs Wrote:
Quote:perhaps people like half-criminals
I posted a link to a paper on bandits in ancient Rome in References & Reviews a short while ago. Bandits could certainly be conscripted into military service when caught.
Paper on banditry in Ancient Rome
I think that some bandit were conscripted into military service. :wink:
And why not? Some military fled into banditry like the next guy. And if it was possible for rebels as well as barbarians to be drafted, then why not criminals?

I seem to recall that the British army at times als offered criminals the option to serve time in prison or serve Her Majesty in the army.

IIRC the Roman Republic after Cannae raised a legion from criminals
AKA Inaki
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