Beginner helmet question (pictures)

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

Greg, another place to start is the Legio XX site, modestly known as The Best Roman Site on the Net:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/

Each section has recommendations for what's available "off the shelf" and some possible custom craftsmen as other options. Much will depend on what your group requires or forbids, of course, and on your own personal tastes and needs. And wallet!

It's very true that most Roman gear was pretty crappily made, but the trick these days is to find gear with good ROMAN mistakes, not all the modern ones! If your repros end up being more carefully finished than the originals, that's not all that big a deal.

If you follow the Legio XX guidelines and manage to avoid the many pitfalls out there, I don't think anyone is going to criticize your gear at a public event. Heck, most people are too polite to do that even if you have a lot of junk! If you ask for a critique, most of us will give it, though hopefully as tactfully as possible. There may be situations where someone in charge has to tell you that something of yours is not acceptable for the activity, so it's always a good idea to get as much advice beforehand as possible.

So yell if you have more questions!

Valete,

Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

[Neuraleanus]

and the other Indian mass produced helmets, is that the bowl is stamped from a single piece of metal with the neck guard welded on. No chance of a welding seam to show up going down the middle of the helmet bowl. Frequently the errors are minor and may be easily fixed.

[Buggnkat]

Avete!

Greg, another place to start is the Legio XX site, modestly known as The Best Roman Site on the Net:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/

Each section has recommendations for what's available "off the shelf" and some possible custom craftsmen as other options. Much will depend on what your group requires or forbids, of course, and on your own personal tastes and needs. And wallet!

It's very true that most Roman gear was pretty crappily made, but the trick these days is to find gear with good ROMAN mistakes, not all the modern ones! If your repros end up being more carefully finished than the originals, that's not all that big a deal.

If you follow the Legio XX guidelines and manage to avoid the many pitfalls out there, I don't think anyone is going to criticize your gear at a public event. Heck, most people are too polite to do that even if you have a lot of junk! If you ask for a critique, most of us will give it, though hopefully as tactfully as possible. There may be situations where someone in charge has to tell you that something of yours is not acceptable for the activity, so it's always a good idea to get as much advice beforehand as possible.

So yell if you have more questions!

Valete,

Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

Actually I have been on your site several times and have found it very informative and helpful.

I am still in the basic learning stage and working my way through what I really want to do.

With no close by Legios this is a little difficult.

Thanks for your offer! I may take you up on that later. I am still in research mode now.

Thanks for the help and offer. On the WW2 Forum we have set up a FAQ newbie section to help guide and steer. Helps guys in a "barren" (without a group of organized reenacting groups) to steer away from the bad dealers and spend their money on things worthwile. Just an idea.

Greg

[Caius Fabius]

It is much easier in WW2 where you are dealing with only about 8 years of history, (the 1938 invasion is a part of WW2). There are dozens of actual items, museum collections, photographs, and actual original manuals, explaining the equipment, the technical specifications, breakdown, cleaning, use, display of almost all of the equipment used in this period. I have driven or TCed several tanks and armored cars from that era, and made parts and repaired them, fired some of the weapons, been on ships and submarines, and even flown as a passenger in some of the original aircraft.

In Roman re-enactment we have over 1000 years of history. We have less than .00001 per cent of the actual equipment, and less than that in relatively good condition. (I am being conservative). We don't know who used what, how it was used, what was acceptable to the actual quartermasters, what was trash, and so much else.

Stuff made from plastic is always wrong. In certain periods, welded helmet bowls are probably wrong. Aluminum, stainless steel, most steel alloys, and most modern metal alloys are wrong. Chrome tanned leather is wrong. Polyester anything is very wrong.

Otherwise, you have to look at dozens of museum displays, private collections or really good books that show these items, and hope that the historical scholar or graduate student who is writing his or her opinion of the items use and time period is somewhat correct! Helmets that don't look like any actual find might be correct, but they won't be acceptable in many units until someone publishes the find! Many of the "different" armories and armorers on the internet are selling Deepeeka or Windlass stuff. Some will write you a cock and bull story about how accurate it is, with no real evidence or knowledge to back it up. Why should they care, as long as they keep selling that item, whether or not it is accurate?

There are so many people out there that don't care to do research, or expect one magic website to tell them what is right, that these businesses slap an "expert's" name on their merchandise, or put that it was in such and such "historical documentary" or " movie" and sell it to those who don't want to do research. If you do spend years doing research and publish a page, someone else, who either has done a lot of research, or has better html skills, will pop up and call your page a bunch of garbage and ridicule you to those who are trying to find answers. The nastiest internet battles are between scholars with differing thesises!

In some cases the store website is like those chain hoaxes, where they add the names of "experts" who have never seen this or that replica helmet or dagger, and would not approve of it. Others are a little more honest and state that this looks like a Roman whatnot, or it looks like a very accurate movie prop, or it is Romanesque, or whatever. These are the same guys that on another page quote from the poorly written and referenced XXXXX wholesale catalog that they bought their stuff from, and will sell you the cromeplated, steel ball weighted "heavy pilum" that is modeled after one found at the siege of Alesia or Dura Europa. By throwing in a battle or a place, they get more gullible people to buy their junk.

You actually can get a few good books and improve your chance of obtaining a decent "kit", join some newsgroups and listen to the discussions about what people think might be correct, but as far as writing a "Roman Re-enactment Equipment Bible"..... It is NOT POSSIBLE, if only for the simple reason that the experts don't agree, and more and more finds are published which put yesterday's terminology and fact into the dustbin. Some of the basic books, no longer available, can be found at libraries. Due to copyright laws, they can't be put on the internet, (check out the google lawsuits). You can make copies of important parts, or search for the originals on ebay and in used book shops. Some are really expensive, some can be gotten for a song. Most are out of date within a couple of years of publication.

Roman Reenactment is just not as easy to do as WWX or American Civil War or the XXXXXXXXXX War or any of the conflicts in the past couple of centuries. Don't expect it to be easy, if you want easy, try re-enacting the Imperial Russian forces in the Crimean War! There are many more references and actual artifacts available! :lol:

[Buggnkat]

Trust me, there is more to WW2 than meets the eye. I have volumes and invite you to our forum to read literally thousands of pages of material that is researched and documented.

I am not looking for a free ride. I don't expect to be spoon feed anything here. What I do like is that people post their opinion and back it up with what facts they have.

Like the real military, I look to the "old timers" to learn from. I have been doing WW2 for over 25 years. I love and do love history. I have over 2000 books on US Airborne alone. SO reading is something I love to do on cold winters nights.

But a helpful hint such as "Gregor, stay away from Gothabadrepros as their helmets are really inaccurate" is very nice.

Oh well back to the books.

Greg

[Caius Fabius]

I understand the whole WW2 thing. Don't get me wrong.

I re-enacted WW2, studied it as a kid, worked as a volunteer in the Patton Museum, sat and read the Divisional histories while pulling staff duty, met WW2 heros, read their books, visited battlefields in Asia, western and eastern Europe, and had a collection of WW2 artifacts, starting with items my father brought home from his service as an infantryman in WW2.

There is loads and loads of information about WW2. If we broke a part in the hetzer or the stuart, or needed to fix the kettenkrad, we had books and photos, tech manuals and veterans who remembered the items.

When we do Roman re-enactment, we don't have the piles and piles of first person material that a WW2, or ACW re-enactor has available to study. We don't have several copies of paint chips from original vehicles, or samples of the standard issue weapons. We usually have bits of rust, chunks of metal and scraps of wood. The few pieces that are in "excellent" condition are not complete, have been reconstructed, or are severely degraded by time, elements and use. We're not even sure who used them or which decade they were originally issued! So many of the battlefields have been reused, that we find items from different battles all mixed by agricultural effects and erosional forces that it is usually left to the best guess of the person on the spot exactly what belongs to when.

I do remember taking a wrong turn while reconning a roadmarch and running into the ruins of a panther tank off in some woods, back in the 1980's, so this should not be a surprise that ancient history is even more jumbled! So many people want to find the "BOOK" that tells what happened when, and where and with whom and what, but it hasn't been written. Julius Caesar's works were probably as accurate as the Soviet history of the October Revolution or the Great Patriotic War. Vegetius writes from hindsight, much like guys writing books about the English Civil War today, without the benefit of as many museums or first person histories! It's no wonder that there isn't an "approved list" that is "universal" to Roman Reenacting.

If someone officially criticizes another artist's work of art , and calls it unsuitable, they almost need to prove why, using original artifacts and techniques. It is easy enough to prove that Wehrmacht Units didn't have MK VI "Tiger" tanks in 1940. It is a lot more difficult to say what armor or helmet that LEG XIX was wearing in AD 4, or what the shield design of LEG IX HISP looked like in AD 44, or even what type of "Roman Soldier" stabbed the "King of the Jews" on a hill outside of Jerusalem during the reign of Pontius Pilate, let alone whether his helmet was iron or bronze or brass, or whether he used a hasta or a lancea or a pila...... hock:

Ever day we learn more and more, sometimes it reinforces what we know, sometimes it shows that we really didn't know what we thought we knew! That is what makes Roman re-enacting interesting. There is always room for more knowledge, important questions are still unanswered! We don't even know what color of tunics were worn by various units!

That's why I got tired of researching the Crimean War, after you go through 100 or so books, walk the battlefields, visit the museums, the continuing research devolves into arguments about whose ancestor blew a bugle during a charge, or what some officer was trying to say when he was killed..... I prefer trying to research and learn in a dynamic subject, such as the study of the Roman military.

Have a great future studying this topic! I did meet a professor who had the "One True Book of Historical Knowledge" but he couldn't figure out how to unlock it!