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SNAPPY SOLDIER TUNIC PLEAT
#31
I just made trying out wearing a cummerbund:

[Image: fasciaVentralis.jpg]

I wound a length of wool flannel folded over lengthwise about the waist, secured with a pair of fibula on the sides. As can be seen, I'm getting a slight pleating effect. Perhaps the tunic needs to be bunched up more about the fibula pins.

What about color? I suppose that no has any idea what the color of a fascia ventralis would of been.
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
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#32
Are you sure the tunic shouldn't be wider, as suggested earlier? Basically, it seems a tunic was 'very' wide (elbow to elbow at least), then brought in for dress. Refer to Graham Sumner's illustration in 'Roman Military Clothing (1)' Plate H1 for the kind of outlandish dimensions for a tunic :wink:

It's very clear that without enough material in the width the pleats will not appear. The folds can only come from the amount of width available. Tunics with in-built sleeves suggest a narrow width to "hug your figure", if you get what I mean. You need a lot of extra material for the pleats to come from.

Cheers.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#33
So an authentic tunic should not have sleeves?
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
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#34
From what I can tell, a tunic has sleeves based on period. It seems that (e.g.) 1st C and before tunics are rectangles, with gaps at the 'armholes'. Maybe by the end of the 2nd C it was a bit more specifically with 'sleeves/arms' (there are people who know better than I about most things). There are clear depictions of legionaries with their tunic pulled down over one shoulder, to leave the right arm free of any encumbrance by sleeves/shoulder material (Plate D3). This means the neckhole was wide enough for that also. There are examples of this as reconstruction, with the 'closed' version of the tunic being held in place by fibula, thongs, or knots at the back of the neck, so it does not fall down over the shoulders (Plate D2).

However, you could only get that amount of pleats from there being enough extra material to make the pleats from, if that makes any sense? A tight dress hugs the body without extra material left for 'bagginess' (for want of a better comparison, and one I would smack a mate for).

A rectangle with a width elbow to elbow is a good measure, with holes left for the arms to go through. As I said, check out Graham Sumner's books, and check out or search other posts here.

Or, you being a member of a reenactment group, you have a different opinion?

Cheers.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#35
I think you are correct Jim. I made a rather close fitting tunic myself(+/-70cm wide), it is still quite baggy but I want my new tunic (probably from cacaius) to be a lot baggier and sleeveless. And I too think that a 't-shirt' tunica isn't suited for the pleat forming.

Best regards,
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#36
Now I'm wondering: how in earth do you get a subarmalis over such a large and baggy, pleaty garment??? Confusedhock:
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
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#37
Quote:how in earth do you get a subarmalis over such a large and baggy, pleaty garment??? Shocked
Ummmmmmm ....... make a bigger subarmalis? :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#38
Tongue I like your new tunic color a lot, you may be on to something there 8)

I'm wondering wheter such a vast tunic would be cmfortable when worn under armour... Anyone tried it?
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#39
Quote:I like your new tunic color a lot, you may be on to something there
Thanks. Hedging my bets whilst being able to mingle in Monaco Smile
Quote:I'm wondering wheter such a vast tunic would be cmfortable when worn under armour... Anyone tried it?
I have two woollen ones that *almost* reach elbow to elbow, and the recently acquired gap in the armour has more to do with Dutch beer than the cut of the tunic:
[url:3bqck4b4]http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Jimmy5191/fcspqr_02.jpg[/url]

Cheers.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#40
Here is a picture of my use of a cummerbund. Also, I used an iron, which raises the question: Did the Romans iron their clothing?

[Image: Picture006.jpg]
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#41
What if we take the Roman texts at their word?

When a miles was being punished, his belt was taken away and his tunic hung down below his knees. So, maybe when he wasn't being punished, his tunic was folded up in a triple fold under his belt, making it look liike a cumberbund and giving him "pockets" under his belt.

I wear a simple rectangular tunic, the sleeves make themselves, when you tie the back of the neck hole in a knot and put on your armor. People are surprised that you don't have a t-tunic on. The belt also adds the faux sleeve effect.

Now, how would you keep a cumberbund effect with the folded tunic if you have the belt over the hamata?
Caius Fabius Maior
Charles Foxtrot
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#42
Quote:When a miles was being punished, his belt was taken away and his tunic hung down below his knees. So, maybe when he wasn't being punished, his tunic was folded up in a triple fold under his belt, making it look liike a cumberbund and giving him "pockets" under his belt.
I like that, it makes a lot of sense. Would it need a tie to keep it up still, or could it be 'fibula'ted in position. However, I also like the idea of an actual cummerbund (a cheap scarf essentially) that would protect the tunic from damage by the cingulum.

Cheers.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#43
Here is my suggestion of wearing the cummerbund, with pleats and a paenula, after several steles.

It has occurred to me studying some of the steles and other sculpture with pleats in them that some of the effect was achieved in the laundering process. I wonder, has anyone thought of how Roman soldiers had their clothes laundered? A modern army cannot function without a good laundry. Would the Romans have been that much different?

[Image: Picture115.jpg]
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#44
[size=150:1rr6x2yf]J[/size]ohn, just wanted to say THANKS! I've been very interested in the sash since reading about it in Sumner's book!! This is a great topic! Just the kind of thing that makes me come back to RAT!!!!!
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
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#45
Great conversation on pleats and folds in Roman clothing.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.

Whenever I look at these loricatae, I am amazed at how much cloth there is under the neckline, armholes and kilt. QUITE A LOT! like tons. I always suspected that this was artistic license, since the folds act like contour lines on the human form, allowing the artist to show the underlying anatomy.

For the high classical period in Greece, (thinking of Phidias statuary on the Parthenon W. Facade here, with the three goddesses, c. 433 BCE) I think that must be the case, since if they stood up, the garments would be huge and voluminous. So is this not the case in Roman art?

Still, we know that the toga was gargantuan, so why not other clothes? Also, unlike classical sculpture, the extra cloth can't be there to contour the human body since most of it is concealed beneath the armor.

Looking closely at some of my pictures I think I have some insights.

Look at this one for instance.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... det18a.jpg

This is the primaporta. Notice the split in the seam on top of the arm, and how the material gathers towards the seam.

I was working on my daughter's halloween costume last year when I needed to gather the fabric, hadn't a clue how to do it. My wife just made a quick simple running stitch, secured it on one end and pulled the thread taut on the other. Instant beatiful gathers and pleats.

Now here's my thought. If the seam runs down along the side of the body, if it was a running stitch that was gathered in the same way, wouldn't it make the same nice u-shaped folds and pleats we see in the art?

This would mean that you wouldn't need fibula or cumberbunds to produce the effect. You wouldn't have to go to any extra effort it would just fold that way naturally.

Just a thought.

Also, I want to talk about necklines:

Check out these two:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... stdeta.jpg

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... andeta.jpg

The necklines on the musculata always have a lot of pleat as well, suggesting that these tunics were very large.

Now I have no idea but I was curious, would a pleated tunic with lots of fabric cause more chafing or less? Would it act as padding or would it bind and pinch uncomfortably? I could make arguments either way.

I'm curious to know what others think.

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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