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SNAPPY SOLDIER TUNIC PLEAT
Quote:I have seen Mr. Bronsart (the lanista from the Junkelmann gladiators) wear a very similar tunic, and I would say it is the same fabric.

Quite right you are, Flavius :-) ) , Both Fritz and Johannes, our 2 referees, have the same tunic since it nicely fits many of the depictions. AFAIK they bought them from Alex, too.

cheers,

Martin
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Tarbicus wrote:

Quote:Also, are these the tunics you referred to dyed with Weld?

Hello Jim
No. I have a wool sample dyed with weld from Textile Research in York.

Quote:Hi Graham, I suppose if you interpret figure #3 from this Pompeii fresco as being a soldier there's a possibility: tavern (from Legio XX website)
Their website also refers to Arrian saying cavalry wore yellow tunics. Perhaps the above-mentioned fresco is a match between a soldier and a cavalryman?

The Antonine Guard were quite specific that the reference was dated to Caesar's Alexandrian war. The Tavern scene could show soldiers off duty but I personally do not think so. As I and others have mentioned before there is nothing other than the red tunic to suggest that they are soldiers, even off duty they should still carry side arms. The other soldier figure in another tavern scene from Pompeii wearing a paenula also carries a spear which looks like a lead weighted pilum. Arrians quote refers to the cavalry sports events and not everyday wear.


Quote:By "tucks", do you mean they were actually sewn in place? That would be very interesting to try out if so.

They look sewn to me. But I would urge you and others to look at some originals first rather than take my word for it and there is certainly no need to hack away at your tunic. Remember try looking through Egyptian collections in Museums not Roman and this can apply to books and academic journals as well.

There are collections of Coptic textiles in many provincial Museums in Britain such as The Whitworth Art Gallery in Manchester, Halifax, Bolton, Rochdale, Hancock Museum in Newcastle and the Flinders Petrie Museum for example. The collections are not always on display and you may need to make an appointment to see the more interesting items. I would guess the same situation applies elsewhere in the world but there are literally thousands of textile fragments and complete examples of tunics and cloaks out there.

Can we see some back views of your reconstructions as well? Continue the good work.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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It would be of great benefit to know of a supplier of fine wool with clavii woven in. The finer the quality of wool, the better the draping effect.
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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Thought it worth posting these two mosaic details, both of lanistae wearing unbelted tunics. They show, to me at least, how big the tunic was, with the armholes reaching all the way down to the wrists. One seems to reach to the knees, whilst the other certainly reaches below the knees. Both with clavii, one with red clavii.

From the McManus image database on the VRoma Image Archive Search:

trainer with victorious Thracian

trainer with victorious secutor and retiarius on his knees)

Both at the museum in Verona.

But this one really shows how large they could be: Verecundus showing clothing press; replica, first century CE
EUR (Rome), Museum of Roman Civilization.

[Image: fuller2.jpg]

In fact, if anyone has a better photo of the last image I'd really appreciate it. It's almost as if a Roman were holding a tunic up saying, "Look! This is what they looked like!"
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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There are a large number of posts on this thread so please excuse my if I am repeating a previous idea.

On of my first Roman items was my tunic which was rather a rather large 40x40 inches. (40 inches is about 100 cm for those of you using that funny French system.)

I put it on and wore it about the house but found it far to floppy. Taking a piece of scrap cloth I tied it around my waist making a temporary belt. But found it restricted my arms upward range of movement. I had to pull some of the fabric up on the sides so I could do things like reach up to a top shelf, throw a pilum, or pat myself on the head.

When I next looked in the mirror I found I had these funny crescent shaped pleats in front. At the time I didn't know they were desirable and just thought they looked funny.

While there was obviously an element of style involved, I think the look of the arced draping in front originated from a need to increase upward range of motion for the arms either deliberately or just through raising the arms and having the tunic fabric pull up naturally, and the natural pleating formed when more fabric is pulled up on the sides than in front.
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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Bang on Tony. In this thread Graham Sumner also points out that there is evidence for the crescent pleats being made more permanent with stitches to hold them in place, so it may well have turned into a particular 'look', in the 1stC in particular.

Funnily, you just calling them crescents may hold a clue to why they were so desirable, given the abundance of crescents in appliques and jewellery? Long shot.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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Comment on upper arm movement.

A lot of the statuary has split sleeves on top. Particularly in the Julio-Claudian period. You can see them on the Primaporta augustus.

Likewise a lot of the statuary has gathered seams, menaing that there is a lot more fabric there to allow movement.

Currently I'm working on my 6th C. kit, but when I get around to my 1st C. kit, I'm going to try to put both on my tunic.

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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There's the vaguest possibility that this fresco from Pompeii may show someone, possibly both standing figures, wearing a waistband/cummerbund.

[url:3w2qczaq]http://www.flickr.com/photos/mymuk/60615489/[/url]
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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For reference: Large mosaic image of a big baggy 3rdC. tunic, white with red clavii, from Tunisia.

Amphitheater mosaic. Detail: Man with prize money. | c. 225-275 | Roman | Roman Provincial | | Smirat.Tunisia. | | ©Kathleen Cohen |

[url:2946xb5i]http://worldimages.sjsu.edu/media/images/rom08_rom_mosaics/rom08097.jpg[/url]

[Image: rom08097.jpg]

Other interesting images in the parent page:

http://worldimages.sjsu.edu/Prt170*1$5726

You need to copy and paste the last URL into a browser due to the format I'm afraid.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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Jim said
Quote:stores.ebay.co.uk/Price-Immaterial

He's very upfront if he doesn't know what the material is, but will also test the material to see if it's natural or not in a random way, as seen for this item which may actually be of some interst to some:
Beige sackcloth, museum, medieval reenactment fabric


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Beige-sackcloth-m ... dZViewItem

I bought some 8 metres of this fabric of his quite a while ago. I would add caution, It's got small fibres which appear to be silver foil/plastic threads dotted here and there in the weave! :?

I spent three whole evenings picking it out!

Other than this fault, it is lovely fabric it is fine enough to hang in folds well and takes dye really well too.

Regards,
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Quote:I spent three whole evenings picking it out!

Haven't you got anything better to do!? :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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Confusedhock: Of course I have Jim!

It must have picked up the small silver fibres from the floor of wherever it was being woven. However, it did kind of stand out!

OCD trait I guess!

Regards,
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